Recently, I interviewed Jim LaValle, who is a clinical pharmacist and author. In this episode he talked about how specific peptides like BPC-157 and KPV can support gut health, reduce inflammation, and potentially accelerate healing in those with autoimmune thyroid conditions. He breaks down the mechanisms in layman’s terms, including how gut permeability and chronic stress can feed into conditions like Hashimoto’s and Graves’. If you would prefer to listen to the interview you can access it by Clicking Here.

Dr. Eric Osansky:

I am super excited to chat with James LaValle. We are going to talk about peptides. James is the author of The Peptide Handbook, second edition. Let’s go ahead and chat about his impressive bio here. 

Jim LaValle is a clinical pharmacist, board certified nutritionist, and author with 40+ years of experience. He specializes in precision and performance health, integrating metabolic-based care. The founder of Metabolic Code Enterprises, he has taught at institutions like University of Cincinnati and George Washington School of Medicine. James LaValle has worked with elite sports teams, military, and first responders, optimizing performance and recovery. He has authored 26 books, including Cracking the Metabolic Code, and over 200 articles. He currently serves as Chief Science Officer at Life Time, leading scientific initiatives toward longevity and performance programs. Welcome, Jim. 

James LaValle: 

Great to be here. How are you doing? 

Dr. Eric: 

Great to have you. I’m doing well. Hope you are. 

James: 

I am. 

Dr. Eric: 

26 books. We recently chatted at a forum. I think you said you’re still working on a couple others. 

James: 

Two coming out this year and two rewrites. I don’t know what it is. I keep getting stuff clustered in my head and got to get it out. That’s very impressive. 

Dr. Eric: 

I don’t know if you have a goal of 50 books in my lifetime. 

James: 

I don’t have a goal. My wife would say, “Get a goal, and get it over with.” Once I establish a goal, then I will hit it, and it will be done. I haven’t done that yet. 

Dr. Eric: 

I’ve only written three books, and I talk about a fourth book. My wife is always like, “What? A fourth book?” I have another 20 in the pipeline, imagine. 

Let’s go ahead and talk about how you also do a lot with metabolic health. We will focus here on peptides. We could talk about anything you want. We could talk about how peptides relate to metabolic health. How did you become interested in peptides? What led you to write specifically the first and second editions of The Peptide Handbook? 

James: 

The first peptide was synthesized and used 100 years ago. That would be insulin. As a pharmacist, I learned about insulin and realized it was a peptide. It was really this evolution. We work on people in the precision health approach. I had a big institute in Ohio, 300-400 people a week. Same thing as other clinics and institutions, teaching about it.

When peptides came to light for the practitioner, it became another very valuable tool in the toolbox for people to try to move people toward wellness more quickly. The way I best describe that is for example, in my son, 10 years ago, when he got hurt, we used peptides on him. I was working with the orthopedic surgeon. He got over this injury in five months when it’s supposed to take 12-18 months. That was a big aha moment. Ever since then, utilizing them, I see that it moves the needle on restoring homeostasis in someone. 

Just so people understand, all peptides are are signaling compounds that are made in your body that are smaller than proteins and bigger than amino acids. Peptides are made from a small sequence of amino acids. They can only get to so big before they’re considered either biologics as drugs or proteins. 

Peptides are a natural part of our body that we should be using. Either due to injury or age or duress or intoxication of the exposome, somehow, we stop making them. We need to get more of them in order to heal. 

That’s the journey for me. It was self-discovery and realizing that peptides- There are 150 peptides in the funnel right now, in the world of pharmacy and drugs. That’s what we’re using. 

Dr. Eric: 

You said it took your son five months to heal from that injury?  

James: 

Not only was it only five months. He got injured during the second weekend of the California football playoffs. He won the state championship; he was an all-state football player, division 1. He gets hurt, and he wants to do track his senior year. He ends up within five months winning the discus championship for the state of California, which is arguably the hardest in the country to win. He had to spin on that injured foot in order to curl that disc a couple hundred feet. The amount of torque you have to put on that foot is pretty amazing. To have that in five months. 

He had a great surgeon, too. Not going to say the surgery didn’t make a difference. Usually when you get a Lisfranc injury, you got a big old sausage foot. He had no swelling, virtually no discoloration. It was just strange how it healed so fast. 

The next 300-400 people I saw that our clinics utilized them on, I saw an equal type of response, where, whatever the target was, whether it was healing the gut or an injury or a tendon tear or cognitive capacity or reducing anxiety or getting more energy, sleeping better, the peptides seem to help people cross that threshold to wellness way quicker than they normally would have.

Dr. Eric: 

From what I understand, it’s not replacing foundations like diet and lifestyle, but it helps accelerate that process. 

James: 

I don’t think you could ever escape from diet and lifestyle. We are still looking for the miracle pill. The fountain of youth pill. It’s live healthier, understand how to enjoy your life, learn what is the right food for you to eat, and stay within a social context as you’re aging. Chances are you will live a long time one way or the other. If you get injured or develop autoimmunity or have some sort of accelerated aging, peptides will probably help you restore that homeostasis. Another tool in the toolbox, that’s all I try to get across to people. 

Dr. Eric:

Let’s talk about autoimmunity. A lot of the listeners have thyroid conditions. You’re probably aware that most thyroid conditions are autoimmune in nature. What are some of the most helpful peptides for those with Graves’ or Hashimoto’s? 

James: 

In Hashimoto’s, for example, often it’s due to a permeable gut. The gut breaks down. You start creating more lipopolysaccharide because the lipopolysaccharide is released from the bacteria that are no longer surviving. The bacteria die off and release a bunch of lipopolysaccharide. 

Because the gut is leaky, it gets into circulation. It gets into the liver. The intestines should be taking it out, so when you overwhelm it, it can’t. The lymph as well. Then it attaches to the thyroid and triggers that inflammatory response in the thyroid. 

In addition to that, once the gut gets leaky or permeable, you start to react to higher lectin foods, things like gluten and dairy and other food sensitivities. They contribute to Hashimoto’s, food antigen induced thyroiditis. 

The big ones for the gut, one is BPC157, which is allowed as a dietary supplement. BPC157 helps restore the damaged mucosal barrier that allows for gut permeability. That is just one of the main functions. There are other functions to it, but in relationship to autoimmunity, that is the big function.

The other one is a three amino acid peptide called KPV, which acts as something called a TNF alpha inhibitor. 70% of your immune response is in the gut. A lot of TNF alpha gets triggered with a permeable gut. Drugs like Enbrel, which are biologics or other autoimmune conditions, are working to dampen TNF alpha. KPV is a peptide that could help to dampen the inflammation signaling going on in the gut.

The third one, which is very interesting, and has just come to light over the last few years, is one called larazotide. It basically lowers zonulin. What happens, either due to infection or stress or you end up releasing more zonulin. Zonulin makes the tight junctions, so these are the cells of the intestine. Now you’re getting bacteria translocation, bacteria fall through the food. The food isn’t digested all the way. You’re getting reactions to the food. 

High zonulin is real problematic and associated with a lot of different health conditions, including autoimmunity. Larazotide lowers zonulin and allows the gut tight junctions to come back and be aligned. 

That of course is in light with what you said earlier. Do you have adequate glutamine? Do you have adequate zinc? Do you have the nutrients? Do you have enough fiber to make butyrate to repair the epithelial cell? All of that plays together. Those are three really big peptides related to gut and autoimmunity. 

Of course, one of the ones that got taken out with the FDA’s actions is thymosin alpha 1. It helped with immunomodulation. That can be really important because obviously, what we are trying to do is balance our immune response. Turns out when the gut gets permeable, you start creating more histamine response, more inflammation, more antigen antibody response. You’re wanting to throw a big bucket of water on that fire. 

That’s where peptides accelerate the ability to do that. When you used to have to struggle for eight months to help get people’s guts aligned, now it’s happening in a few months, and they’re feeling the difference. 

That was a pretty short answer for all that. 

Dr. Eric: 

To summarize, BPC157 to help with the mucosal barrier. KPV, which is a TNF alpha inhibitor. Larazotide, which helps lower zonulin, and can assist with the gut healing process. Then thymosin alpha 1 is no longer available, but there are other peptides that could- 

James: 

TA11 will be out shortly. It’s compliant. I think TA1 is going to come back in the short run. I think we’re going to see it change its status on TA1 over the next 60 days. Visited Washington on the compounding issue a couple times. I was in front of the FDA. I think TA1 probably has a really good shot. 

I think some other ones will come back as well related to longevity, like epitalon or delta sleep inducing peptide will probably get a shot. I think there will be some positive moves related to that. The GLP1s, pharma will say we need to have that space. We’ll see what happens. 

Dr. Eric: 

Taking those three peptides alone that you mentioned can have a dramatic impact on pretty much any autoimmune condition. All autoimmune conditions are associated with that increase in intestinal permeability. 

James: 

Without a doubt. Where it gets powerful is when you combine nutrition. Hey, what will I do to kill the bad bugs? Put some beneficial flora back in. Add fiber, so the microbiome can make butyrate. Do something like Moducare, which is really good for immunomodulation. There are some great human studies on Moducare. It creates a good basis. 

When you layer those peptides on the nutrition and dietary changes that you make in autoimmunity, because of course you will make changes on diet with autoimmunity, right? It just makes them stick quicker. People get better faster. No aching. Not noticing the visual disturbances. I’m not as puffy. Gee, my belly isn’t bloated. It really is I think one of the most significant things to come out over the last 25 years: the more random acceptance and awareness of peptides. 

Dr. Eric:

I know everybody is different. On average, how long do people take these peptides for when dealing with an autoimmune condition? 

James:

At least a good 12 weeks. You may be on them for quite a while. It may take six months. It depends on the individual as to how they’re feeling. They could always take a break. I tend to want to keep people on them until I feel really comfortable, and my staff or a dietician feel really comfortable. You’re in a good place now; let’s start to reverse titrate you out of this. See if it sticks.

The beauty of it is if they need a peptide, the side effect profile is way less, especially if you’re not injecting them. One of the big issues that the FDA brought up was the immunogenicity. If you inject it, the immune system gets after it and attacks it because of the injection into the tissue. 

Other than the secretagogues, the sermorelin helps release the growth hormone, which is also important because it helps retain circadian rhythm for your body. You start making the hormones and sync them when you use things like sermorelin at bedtime. The secretagogues are probably the only ones that might- You might get injection redness or irritation depending on what it is. The secretagogues are the only ones I have seen over the last decade where it could potentially lead to getting a welt or wheel or rash, in which case they have to discontinue it. Start back really slow after a couple months, a tiny amount, almost as if they were doing an allergy vaccine. Build back up to it, and tolerate it.

On a secretagogue, you would only do it five days out of seven because of the immunogenicity risks. Five days on, two days off. 

Dr. Eric: 

With BPC157, I know you could take that orally. Are those other two only injections, or can you take those orally, too? 

James: 

Larazotide is great orally, as is KPV. Full disclosure: we have played with patent pending process of a solid-state liposome that had patent pending for all drugs, all nutrients. It was initially made to deliver oncology drugs and opioids in the European market. It’s particularly good at delivering small molecules. 

Peptides are really small. You can wrap them in this solid-state liposome chewable. We have seen dramatic results partnered with compounding pharmacies to experiment on these things. Obviously, the BPC and KPV actually qualify as dietary supplements in their natural state. We are seeing really great results with them orally.

In the end in certain instances, injection is going to be favored. If you want to build collagen in your skin, copper peptide is best. If you can inject GHKCU, it’s great. Now of course, for working around that through microneedling or driving the medicant through the skin, so they can do that way, too. 

I do think new technologies are around that will allow us to deliver these things in a more elegant and easier way. Some people get injection fatigue. I’m getting tired of sticking myself. 

Dr. Eric: 

Since you’re a clinical pharmacist, I wanted to ask you about potential interactions, especially those taking- Pretty safe when it comes to thyroid hormone replacement. I don’t know of any interactions. But people with hyperthyroidism who are taking antithyroid meds like methimazole or beta blockers. Are there any known interactions with at least any of those medications? 

James:

If you’re on beta blockers, and you give a GLP1, it’s a little bit of concern as your heart rate will go up. Honestly, the other benefits are so big, it doesn’t matter. There is a known interaction with methimazole. I’ve seen no issues with thyroid. 

The only thing I’ll say is people who are taking thyroid hormone, you start to correct their chemistry, and their cortisol is coming down. Thyroid hormone receptors come back to life, and you will have to adjust that dose down most likely. 

Same thing if your cortisol is elevated, and you’re wanting to use kisspeptin for stimulating gonadal release of hormones. Once cortisol is under control, cortisol competes with testosterone and estrogen receptors. You get your cortisol under control, and your hormones are starting to work better. It’s giving that full thought of understanding. All of these hormones are in sync. All these peptides are part of that cascade or symphony, where you’re creating a harmonic signal for “I’m healthy.”

As a practitioner, you want to watch and go, “Okay, they’re still doing well. Maybe I can lower something or even get off of it.” 

Dr. Eric: 

Makes sense. Let’s talk about some other peptides. Weight loss is a hot topic. I know you said GLP1s might not be available, it sounds like, in the near future. Feel free to talk about them. I don’t know if there are other peptides that also can help with weight loss. 

James: 

There will be other GLP1s available through compounding pharmacies. They will be there. Phase 2 or 3a. Researched peptides. I don’t have a crystal ball to look into the middle of that, and it’s way above my pay grade from the legal side. When you think of the magnitude of the companies that are making GLP1s, Nova and Lily. I can’t gaze into the crystal ball.

I think GLP1s are super important. They are one of the most significant drugs to be developed for the U.S. in particular, or what I would say morbidly obese countries because Canada is following us fairly closely. 

There is a big controversy, “Oh, it’s cheating to use a GLP1.” Then there was, “You only lose lean mass; you don’t lose fat,” which is absolutely a lie. It’s not a fact. GLP1s actually stimulate muscle synthesis. When people undereat, they are going to get catabolic and lose muscle and lose fat pads on their face. 

Given that you use a GLP1 correctly, and I am big on teaching at least at the American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine, and what we are implementing at Life Time, is titration to where you are losing weight, about two pounds a week. Keep at that lower dose. When you go to get off it, your body isn’t so dependent on it. Hopefully, at the same time, you’re implementing lifestyle changes, like exercise, diet, stress reduction, better sleep. Those are four biggies. How do I manage those four things? 

In that criticism, I laugh because people who are trying to say GLP1s are cheating is like saying taking insulin is cheating. Nobody would deny anyone insulin because they die really quick. The only difference is when you’re not getting a GLP1, you die a slow, miserable death. You get pulmonary hypertension. You get ventricle failure. You get cardiac remodeling. You get fatty liver. All the complexes of insulin resistance and type two diabetes come crashing down on a person. 

The challenge is if we’re using it as a miracle again. Societally, we’re not doing enough to teach people, “If you want to use this to lose weight, you need to use it as the bridge to adopting a healthier lifestyle,” which I don’t think that message gets out too much or nearly enough. 

Dr. Eric: 

Very true. That’s good to know. I’m glad you mentioned how GLP1s actually stimulate muscle synthesis. Also, it’s a slow process. Like you said, two pounds a week, which is losing weight at a healthy rate. You don’t want to lose 10 pounds a week.

James: 

The protein targets 1.6g/kg. That’s the one that says you’re not going to lose lean mass. Yes, exercise. Exercise to stimulate lean mass as well. Those are the things people should be doing if they’re trying to lose weight. 

I have been around this business for 40 years, like you said in my introduction. 40 years, I have seen the HCG diet. Everybody jumped on that. “Oh my god, it’s a miracle. Look how much weight I lost.” They abused it. They didn’t change their lifestyle. Three times a year, they are going back to use HCG, and by the third year, it’s not working anymore. They have just lost a bunch of lean mass, which is the currency of your health, aging process, and metabolism. 

If you just take a GLP1, and you don’t do anything else, a third of your weight will be lean mass, not weight loss. If you lose 20 pounds, about seven of it, 6.75 of it, is going to end up lean mass and not fat mass versus doing it a little slower, eating enough protein, and burning off the fat. 

We’re talking about this at Life Time. People need to lose 20-30 pounds of weight, and nothing has worked to get it off. It’s because they’re insulin resistant. They’re under stress. They’re probably eating too many carbs and sugars. Who knows what their exposome burden is? What their glyphosate is at, which messes with insulin receptors. Is your gut permeable? When your gut is permeable, and you’re releasing all these inflammatory cytokines, that turns off your insulin receptors. 

That’s the GLP1s. I think they’re really important because people have themselves backed into a corner. 

Dr. Eric: 

I definitely agree. If someone is 50, 75, 100 pounds overweight, even 25 pounds overweight, time and place for that. How long can someone safely take them? If someone is 50 pounds overweight, and they’re losing an average of two pounds per week, and they are incorporating the foundations, eating enough protein, doing strength training, is it safe for them to be on it for 25 weeks to achieve their goal of 50 pounds?  

James: 

Look, there are diabetics who have been on them for years. It’s safe for people to stay on them until they hit their target weight. There are people who may need to be on them on a microdose. It’s showing up a lot. Even in the literature, there is starting to be this rumbling of microdosing.

In my opinion, I come by weight loss honestly. I have run weight loss clinics. I had a contract research organization on weight loss clinics. My brother was 476 pounds. My mother was obese. My father was a type 2 diabetic that was obese. My aunts and uncles, all a bunch of little Italians who tended to be overweight. 

If you had to stay on it for the rest of your life on a small dose in order to keep the weight off, I don’t have a problem with that. That excess weight will kill you really quickly. If you’re a diabetic by age 30, you will lose 13 years of your life. That study just published. 

I am a big fan of trying to get people to titrate off when they hit goal and see if their diet and lifestyle holds them. If it does, awesome. The older you are, the harder that probably is because you have trained your body in a certain metabolic signaling pathway that may be hard to reset, but you don’t know until you try. 

Dr. Eric: 

Very true. Hair loss is very common in those with thyroid conditions. You want to address the cause of the problem. If the thyroid hormone imbalance is the cause, you want to address that. Still, sometimes, they will address the cause of the problem, and the hair won’t grow back, or not as quickly as they want. I know there are peptides that can help with hair regrowth. 

James: 

The big one is copper peptide, GHKCU. The other two, BPC and TB4. TB4 is another one that is probably going to come back. Topically, there’s peptides for topical use for the hair that are accepted because they’re more cosmeceuticals. When you start to combine thymic peptides with copper peptide, which helps with collagen synthesis and gene regulation. When you think about your hair bulb, you get a lot of inflammation there, and that changes gene transcription in the hair bulb. The GHKCU helps modulate that. 

Then there are a couple of things that work with it as well. Melatonin and caffeine are interesting topicals to go with peptides. Using PRP, platelets are spun down and getting the plasma and injecting that with the peptides, that’s been a stable process for a lot of folks that I know. It’s involved at the American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine on hair restoration.

Once again, topical BPC. Thymic peptides. Copper peptides. Actually, an interesting compound that is used is a senolytic called rapamycin. They are finding a lot of success with rapamycin topically. It’s a powerful drug. 

I tend to say to start with the topical melatonin, topical caffeine. Usually, people will see benefit, especially if they are including red light therapy with it, to get the good red light therapy helmets. It can do really well. I have had a lot of success with it with COVID long-haulers who lost their hair, especially women who lost 50% of their hair. Same issue, immune system got fired up, and hair came out. 

Dr. Eric: 

I’m sure it’s something that takes a while, where they are using the peptides for a few months rather than a few weeks to get some significant hair regrowth. In combination with that red light therapy helmet, correct? 

James: 

Correct. I tell people all the time that it takes six months. Once again, great teachers are your family members. My spouse had COVID, and she had long haul signs. She lost a lot of hair. She had a lot of hair, but she lost a lot of hair. It was very concerning for her. 

It was interesting because yesterday, we were doing QEEG assessments. The guy said, “My god, I can’t get this helmet on your head because your hair is so thick.” That’s what we did with her. We used the peptides. Her hair came back really beautifully. It took about six months, but it grew back to its original luster. You can’t ask for more than that. 

Dr. Eric: 

Definitely agree. Have you had any success with alopecia areata, like autoimmunity? If so, would it make sense to incorporate some of the gut healing peptides that you mentioned earlier, like BPC157 and the others? 

James: 

I think there are a couple things you want to talk about there. A lot of times, alopecia areata, you have high cortisol levels. If you wanted to use intranasal sprays of Selank or Semax, which help dampen someone’s anxiety, that could be fantastic.

Yes, you would want to work on their gut. Yes, you would want to do something topical. It’s a little more layered in complexity because you have multiple systems that are interplaying there. Most of my alopecia cases are stress-induced. 

Dr. Eric: 

That’s interesting. Stress is a big factor with a lot of conditions. You won’t get rid of the stress, but trying to do things to manage stress, improve stress handling. Definitely could make a big difference. 

James: 

Nervous system in a modern world. It’s very difficult. Getting people to get to sleep at night, that’s where the growth hormone secretagogues, like sermorelin. When you’re stressed, you lose your secretagogue action on growth hormone. That’s pretty important for resetting your master sleep clock. The superchiasmatic nucleus that is responsible for all the mini clocks in all your organs. When people do sermorelin, they typically report they are sleeping so much deeper. 

Another big area. When you’re under stress, by default, you shut down your gonadotropin releasing hormone. You shut down your growth hormone releasing hormone. You want to reset those. I think it’s critical for people, but they work at that. Great peptides for sleep that I think will be back on the market. You can do things like bioregulators, which are natural approaches to doing a peptide. 

Epithalamin, which is basically Epitalon. Epitalon is a peptide that has to do with signaling of longevity in getting all your circadian clocks to align. That’s a pretty interesting compound as well. Epithalamin or Epitalon. 

Dr. Eric: 

The question everybody wants to ask, but it’s different with everybody. When taking these peptides or bioregulators to help with sleep, could they get results in a few days or a week or two? Is that something where it’s also a few months before they really notice a difference? 

James: 

Great question actually. People start noticing sleep a little bit quicker. You have to realize that sleep is a disorder of hyperarousal. Your brain gets jacked up and gets hyperaroused. It thinks a white tiger is chasing it at bedtime. In fact, it was just one too many texts or emails. You’re staring at your phone before you go to bed. You’re telling your body, “It’s a white tiger.” You have to work on correcting that one way or the other. 

What I find on peptides, the older you are, the more you probably would stay on a peptide. As you age, sleeping and the regulation of your circadian timing becomes more difficult. If you’re on beta blockers, that depletes melatonin, so that becomes more difficult. Now you don’t have melatonin on board. Therefore, you are always taking melatonin if you are on a beta blocker probably.

Once I get people to understand calming their stress during the day, peptides like Selank or Semax help calm stress during the day. Eventually, you may not need anything to sleep at night because you have appropriately reset that circadian timing of your hormones. Then you kick back in your melatonin production like you should versus when you’re under a lot of stress, you don’t make melatonin. Delta sleep inducing peptide, you don’t make much of that, so you stay awake. Or you go to sleep and wake up at 3am, making a list.

Dr. Eric: 

Just to confirm, it is safe to be on these long term, for good if you need to? I know everything is risks versus benefits, just like you said with weight loss. If you have to be on a low dose GLP1 rather than gain the weight back. Similar with the sleep. Sleep is essential, so maybe there is a time and place for weaning off. If you need to take the peptide in order to get quality sleep, then the benefits outweigh the risks. 

James: 

Right. I am a big believer on a lot of these peptides, like the mitochondrial peptides. People have heard of MOTS-c or SS-31. There are things that should be seasonally applied. Just like the Epitalon I talked about that resets the circadian rhythm, every six months, you do it for 10-14 days. You don’t do that all the time. There are certain families of peptides where you have a seasonality to them. 

There are other ones where as you’re getting older, or if your immune system is really off, and it’s really helping you, why get off? like I mentioned, the sermorelin, you should be taking two days off out of the week. Some peptides, you do every three days. In the book, it details how to dose those things. 

Dr. Eric: 

Okay. Thymic peptides are every three days? 

James: 

Right. 

Dr. Eric: 

Okay. Can I put you on the spot and ask you what peptides you take? I don’t know if there are regular supplements for you, where you take a dozen or more. What are at least a few of the main ones that you take? 

James: 

I take a small molecule called OS-01, which is not a peptide but a tiny little molecule. That regulates AMPK and induces autophagy. It’s great for lean mass retention.

I’ll periodically use a GLP1 because of my family history. I don’t have to dose it all the time, but I’m one of those people who does better if I do a little bit of it.

I’ll do sermorelin because of my age. I turned 65, and I want to keep producing some growth hormone.

I utilize BPC and KPV pretty regularly in a chewable tablet because I grew up living on antibiotics as a child. I had severe candida. I had allergies and did have obstructed breathing; it wasn’t officially asthma. I had rashes. All of that stuff led to a leaky and permeable gut. Because I still work out fairly hard, I like being on a little bit of KPV and BPC just to protect the gut, decrease inflammation signaling. 

I don’t inject all day every day. I am not doing six peptides four times a day. I am very selective. I will have periods of time where I go off the sermorelin. I have periods of time where I may not take KPV. I went weeks, months without taking Ser peptide. I try to be selective and ask what my body needs.

I certainly take a fair amount of nutrients, and I watch my diet. That’s the core. I exercise. Those are probably the most important aspects of my health journey. I think peptides augment it and put a cherry on top of the journey. 

Dr. Eric: 

Very informative. That first one you mentioned that you took, for the lean muscle mass retention, is it OS-01? 

James: 

Yes. 100mg, daily, six days, six weeks on, four weeks off. Really interesting small molecule. I have seen a lot of results with that. Losing fat mass, gaining lean mass without having to knock yourself out. It’s an interesting one. Because of its mechanisms of action, it burns fat and retains lean muscle and signals building of lean muscle. When you combine that, say for example with a GLP1, it’s an interesting combination.  

Dr. Eric: 

That’s orally? 

James: 

Yeah. It’s an oral capsule, 100mg. 

Dr. Eric: 

The GLP1, you say you take occasionally because of your family history. Do you take it for a month or two at a time, and then you take a break for six months? 

James: 

Because of what I do, I’m around- I dose fairly intuitively, so I would say probably every other week is the way I do it. I’m pretty solid at every other week, 2.5mg. That isn’t a microdose; it’s within the range of dosing on it. Every couple weeks, it tends to keep me where I want to be. 

Dr. Eric: 

Wonderful. Thanks for sharing that. There are plenty more peptides in your book, so I don’t want to steal the thunder. We’d have to spend a few more hours, maybe the whole rest of the evening, talking about them all. Any others that you really wanted to talk about? Did we hit the major ones during this conversation? 

James: 

I think we hit the big ones. I mentioned Epitalon. That is incredibly important. Epitalon and Vilon are the big longevity peptides that as people continue to want to reach for being healthier as they age, to maintain their vitality, those are biggies. I know I mentioned Epitalon a little bit. Those are really big. 

My gosh, there is Cerebrolysin or thymosin beta 4. Obviously, the MOTS-c I mentioned. There is a lot to go into that. How do you repair your mitochondria as you’re aging? They get damaged as you age, so you’re not making energy like you should. That’s a topic for another interview. Maybe you could have me back, and we could talk more about peptides. 

Dr. Eric: 

Yeah. Or your future books or past books. I’m sure we’ll have plenty to talk about with future interviews. 

The final question related to the contraindications. I know we spoke about some of the medications. For example, pregnancy, breastfeeding, children. What contraindications? 

James: 

When women are pregnant and breastfeeding, all things are off, other than what the OB-GYN says. I don’t play there. It’s just too many unknowns in terms of peptides.

With children, it depends on what you’re trying to accomplish. You’re not trying to create growth hormone on a normal child. Maybe they need some gut help because they have eosinophilic esophagitis, and you are trying to quiet that mucosal barrier. 

There isn’t a lot of evidence around peds in the use of peptides. You have to rely on the individual wisdom of the practitioner to think through what they might consider doing. 

Obviously, the GLP1s, endocrine, type 2 tumors, and certain thyroid cancers, can’t do it with. Those things are well known. If you have a history of cancer, you don’t want to do a growth hormone secretagogue because it’s in the literature that it could stimulate it. That’s pretty much it.

Once again, read up. If somebody is really interested in starting on peptides, I’d encourage them, if they don’t buy my book, to get somebody else’s book. Read what they do, and we list what the cautions are on each of the peptides, so you can get an understanding of, “Is this a candidate for me to try?” Once again, people spend more time picking at their refrigerator than picking out what they need to do for their health. They need to spend more time understanding their health. I’d invite them to do that.

Don’t just listen to a podcast off some bro science situation. We discuss this responsibly. You asked me about contraindications. Are there any interactions? Those are a part of the conversation that should be taking place, not just take this for that. I really appreciate that we get to have that kind of conversation. 

Dr. Eric: 

Same here. Definitely appreciate you being up front about the contraindications. There is mostly good with the peptides. It’s not even bad; it’s just that not a lot of research with pregnancy and breastfeeding, just with anything else. People ask me about certain herbs during pregnancy. The truth is, there is not much with certain herbs. We don’t know, and we don’t want to take the chance, to say there’s no problem. 

James: 

“Yeah, just take it.” No. 

Dr. Eric: 

Great. Jim, this was an amazing conversation. Where can people get not only your new book, The Peptide Handbook, second edition, but your other books? Your future books? I assume Amazon. If there are any other places. 

James: 

Amazon is a great spot. They can go to the @TheRealJimLavalle on Instagram. I have a lot of information. They can always look up what we’re doing at Life Time with our longevity centers as well. I’m real passionate about all of it. 

Dr. Eric: 

Wonderful. TheMetabolicCode.com is another website of yours. 

James: 

Metabolic Code is our cloud-based infomatics platform. It targets where the person is metabolically broken. I teach a lot of that at the American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine, where I am the co-chair. We have meetings there. My biggest regret is I am always on stage, so I don’t get to network and meet people. 21 hours, I was teaching at the West Palm event. It was crazy. 

Dr. Eric: 

Wow. I didn’t know that. You were there that Thursday. 

James: 

Conference event, yeah. 

Dr. Eric: 

That’s awesome. I enjoyed your presentation. Grateful for everything you do. Thanks for sharing your knowledge about peptides. Definitely look forward to having you back in the future. 

James: 

Great, thanks for having me. Real pleasure. 

Dr. Eric: 

All right, thanks again, Jim. 

In this episode, we take a closer look at seven (7) common gut-related roadblocks that can interfere with thyroid recovery. That includes foods like gluten, grains, and nightshades but also deeper layers like low stomach acid, gut infections, and hidden stress. You’ll also hear about environmental factors such as glyphosate and xenoestrogens that erode gut integrity over time.. If you would prefer to listen to the interview you can access it by Clicking Here.

Dr. Eric Osansky: 

I am going to discuss seven gut healing roadblocks that can prevent you from restoring your thyroid health. 

The first gut healing roadblock I’d like to discuss is eating gluten. Many people listening to this understand that they should be avoiding gluten while healing. One of the big reasons is because gluten is harsh on the gut. Research from I believe it’s 2015 shows that gluten can cause a leaky gut in everyone. That alone is reason to avoid gluten. 

There is what’s called the triad of autoimmunity for those with Graves’ and Hashimoto’s as well as other autoimmune conditions. According to the triad, which I have discussed before, there is three components necessary for autoimmunity to develop. 

There is a genetic predisposition, which we can’t do anything about. Then there is exposure to one or more environmental triggers, which we can find and remove. Then there is that increase in intestinal permeability, that leaky gut. 

Eating gluten as well as other factors we will discuss here is one of the things that can cause a leaky gut and set the stage for an autoimmune thyroid condition. Even if you don’t have an autoimmune thyroid condition, it can still cause a leaky gut, which is not a good thing. 

Gluten, at least while healing, should be avoided. There is an argument that we should all avoid it permanently. If someone is dealing with Celiac, then you definitely want to be strict about avoiding gluten, even avoiding cross-contamination. If someone has a non-Celiac gluten sensitivity, you also probably should be strict when avoiding it. Even if you don’t have Celiac or a non-Celiac gluten sensitivity, it’s still a good idea to avoid gluten, at the very least while healing. 

When you have restored your health, you could decide whether or not you’re going to reintroduce gluten, even if it’s on an occasional basis. Some people definitely choose not to reintroduce gluten on an occasional basis. Let’s focus on healing first. 

Sticking to the topic of gluten, some people wonder if the problem is really with glyphosate and not gluten. The reason they bring this up is because they might have traveled to Europe or have a family member or friend who traveled to Europe, and that person was able to eat wheat in Europe. Let’s say they went to Italy and had pizza and pasta that was not gluten-free, and they did fine.

I had Dr. Tom O’Bryan on the podcast, and I asked him this question. His response was that the reason why people do okay when they go to Europe is because in Europe, wheat is lower in FODMAPs. It’s a problem with FODMAPs. I discuss this in other episodes, for those who aren’t familiar. 

He was saying that even when you go to Italy or other countries, gluten is gluten. It’s going to cause an immune response. It potentially can cause a leaky gut. Glyphosate is definitely an issue. I’ll mention glyphosate later during another gut healing roadblock. Regardless of where you are, whether you’re in the U.S. or in Europe or somewhere else, you really want to, especially while healing, definitely avoid gluten. 

Let’s move on to gut healing roadblock #2: other foods that can be harsh on the gut. In addition to gluten, there are other foods that you want to at the very least take a break from while healing, or at least initially while healing. Some of the foods you are mentioning here, you might not need to completely avoid while healing.

This first one, I would say in most cases, is a good idea to completely take a break from until you have restored your health. That is grains, especially corn, but I would say other grains as well. I pick on corn a little bit because the research shows that corn can have a similar response to gluten. 

There is a reason why grains are excluded not only from an AIP diet but also a regular paleo diet. They can be harsh on the gut. 

I enjoy eating grains every now and then. Keep in mind I am in a state of wellness right now. I did avoid grains while I was healing when I dealt with Graves’ back in 2008-2009. Every now and then, I will have some gluten-free grains. 

I understand that it is difficult to follow restrictive diets, even though there is a lot of variety with fruits and vegetables. Some people are used to eating rice or oatmeal on a regular basis. I would say to take a break from grains. 

There is a really good book called No Grain, No Pain from Dr. Peter Osborne. If you want to learn more about the concerns with grains, you might want to check out that book.

Nightshades. This includes tomatoes, eggplant, peppers, white potatoes. Nightshades also have compounds including alkaloids and glycoalkaloids that could be harsh on the gut and cause inflammation. 

The purpose of an elimination diet is to eliminate foods that could potentially be inflammatory that people commonly react to. We are not eliminating nightshades because of the sensitivities. I bring this up because I have had people do food sensitivity testing and show me the panel and say, “Hey, tomatoes are fine for me to eat,” etc. Again, we are not excluding nightshades while healing because of sensitivities. They could be harsher on the gut.

Similar with grains. If you do a food sensitivity test, and it shows that you’re not sensitive to certain grains, especially gluten-free grains, you might think, “Hey, why not have some of these grains?” Again, that’s not why we’re excluding some of these foods I am mentioning here.

That also includes nuts and seeds. Nuts and seeds are paleo-friendly, but they are not AIP-friendly. When I dealt with Graves’ back in 2008, there was no AIP diet back then. They weren’t gut-healing diets, but I followed a paleo diet initially. I hit a roadblock in my recovery, and I wasn’t a big egg eater at the time. I cut out nuts and seeds, and then I saw improvement in my progress. That seemed to be a roadblock in my case. I didn’t exclude them for too long; it was maybe about three months that I cut them out. 

Just like nightshades, nuts and seeds have good health benefits. They are a good source of mono and saturated fats. They can be harsh on the gut though. Another reason to consider avoiding them. 

There are some people I work with, even those with Graves’ or Hashimoto’s, who choose to continue eating nuts and seeds. They might follow a paleo diet rather than an AIP diet, and some of these people do okay. Some of these people don’t do okay. They might hit a roadblock. That’s why I encourage people to follow AIP initially. If someone is absolutely opposed to following AIP, but they are willing to follow paleo, then let’s see how you progress just doing paleo. 

I do want to mention dairy. I haven’t come across research that shows that dairy specifically causes a leaky gut. Dairy can be inflammatory in some people. It’s a common allergen. If you are going to eat dairy, you definitely want to eat healthier forms of dairy, like drinking A2 milk or raw dairy, and not the pasteurized, homogenized dairy. Even while healing, it’s a good idea to take a break from dairy, mainly because it’s a common allergen, not because it will cause a leaky gut.

Like I said, the research is more clear with gluten as well as corn. 

I also wanted to bring up legumes. Legumes, like grains, are excluded from both a paleo and AIP diets. Legumes do have some really good health benefits. If someone is a vegan, they might not be able to get protein from other sources. 

In my book The Hyperthyroid Healing Diet, I talk about different types of diets. One is a level one diet, which is a modified Plant Paradox diet. A Plant Paradox diet is from Dr. Steven Gundry. 

If someone is a vegan, because otherwise they won’t get enough protein, I think it’s okay for them to have some pressure-cooked legumes. Legumes, lentils do have some good health benefits. They could also be a little harsh on the gut. Again, pressure cooking them properly will minimize that. 

This is one that is more debatable. I would say if you want to play it safe, avoid legumes while healing. If you absolutely want to have them, especially if you’re a vegan/vegetarian, then you might be okay eating legumes. 

Let’s move onto gut healing roadblock #3: drinking alcohol. Alcohol should be completely avoided while healing. Even after healing, you want to minimize it. A lot of people think about the stress that alcohol puts on the liver, which is true; alcohol does put stress on the liver, but it also puts stress on the gut. It can increase permeability of the gut.

Are there exceptions? For example, red wine, white wine. They have some good benefits. There is a little bit of controversy in the research. Some studies show that red wine can cause a leaky gut. Some show that the polyphenols can benefit the gut microbiome. I think red wine, without question, as well as white wine do have some good health benefits. It’s not all bad. But still the alcohol can increase permeability. I would say try to take a break if you’re a wine drinker. 

Same thing with other types of alcohol. Some people might like beer and ask if they can drink gluten-free beer. It’s not just the gluten we are talking about here; it’s the alcohol.

Another question I sometimes get asked is about alcohol from herbal extracts. With herbal extracts, these usually have such a small amount of alcohol. Even if it says 50% alcohol, if someone is taking a teaspoon, so they are getting 2.5ml of alcohol per serving, even if they are taking a few servings per day, it’s usually not going to be enough to cause a leaky gut. Everything comes down to risk versus benefits. 

You might wonder about an alcohol-free extract. Something that uses glycerin instead of ethanol. It’s an option, but the reason why ethanol is used is because it’s really a good solvent. It’s a lot better than glycerin. It does a better job of extracting the phytonutrients from the herb. In other words, if you’re using alcohol-based tinctures or extracts, you will get greater benefit from the herb you’re taking.

If you’re sensitive to alcohol, then take something that has glycerin, like a non-alcoholic extract. I wouldn’t avoid an alcoholic extract because of the concern that it might affect the gut. 

When I dealt with Graves’, I took bugleweed and motherwort, so I took two different liquid herbs that had alcohol. Everything turned out fine. Over the years, a lot of my patients have taken liquid bugleweed and motherwort or other herbs. Very small amount. It’s different than having a cup of red wine or other alcoholic beverages. 

Let’s move on to gut healing roadblock #4, which is low stomach acid. Keep in mind that some of the other roadblocks that I’ll be discussing will cause low stomach acid, which I’ll also discuss here. 

Low stomach acid is common. Stomach acid of course is important for digestion, helping break down nutrients, especially minerals. Also important for protein digestion. Also helps to keep harmful gut pathogens in check. You want to have healthy levels of stomach acid. There are other benefits as well. It helps activate digestive enzymes. 

The problem is that the symptoms of low stomach acid and high stomach acid can be similar. Also, not everyone with low stomach acid will have symptoms. If someone has symptoms such as heartburn or reflux, most medical doctors will associate this with too much stomach acid. As a result, they will recommend an acid blocking medication, so a proton pump inhibitor. If someone takes that on a short-term basis, if you could avoid it, great. It’s more of a concern when someone is taking it long-term. A lot of people take these acid blocking medications for months, even years. 

It’s a problem because I’m not saying there is not a time and place for taking it long-term, but some doctors will just give it to their patients long-term and never try to address the cause of the problem. 

A lot of times, it could be a low stomach acid problem, not too much stomach acid. That being said, you do need to be careful. It could be too much stomach acid, too. 

I like butane HCl; it’s in my digestive enzyme, Enzymes Plus. It has a smaller amount than what’s in a separate butane HCl supplement. Most people seem to tolerate it well. If someone has too much stomach acid, taking a separate butane HCl supplement might be too much and might cause heartburn or other symptoms. 

There is something called the butane HCl challenge. That actually involves taking butane HCl to see how you respond. If you take butane HCl or a digestive enzyme that has butane HCl, even though it’s a smaller amount, and feel heartburn, for example, that might mean that you have enough stomach acid. In some cases, too much stomach acid, and then you should back off.

With the butane HCl challenge, if you take a separate capsule of butane HCl and do fine, and you always want to do this with meals high in protein, at least 10-15g of protein. Never do this on an empty stomach. 

If you are fine taking a single capsule, according to the challenge, you’d want to take a second capsule. If you do fine with a second capsule, then add a third capsule. If you then get some heartburn, that’s telling you that’s too much, and you want to back down to the two capsules. Take two capsules of butane HCl per meal while trying to figure out what the cause of the low stomach acid problem is, so you don’t have to rely on butane HCl on a long-term basis.

There are other things you can do such as bitter herbs you can take. Ultimately, you want to try to address the cause of the low stomach acid. One potential cause is an underactive thyroid, so low thyroid could be a factor. This doesn’t mean if you have hyperthyroidism, you can’t have low stomach acid. Chronic stress could also cause low stomach acid, and a lot of people deal with chronic stress, including me when I dealt with Graves’. 

H-pylori could cause low stomach acid. H-pylori is very common in those with autoimmune thyroid conditions such as Graves’ and Hashimoto’s.

Let’s discuss gut healing roadblock #5. Speaking of chronic stress, that’s what this roadblock is, as well as imbalances of the parasympathetic nervous system. These two are related.

Chronic stress decreases secretory IgA, which lines the mucosal surfaces of the body, including the gastrointestinal tract. It’s not a leaky gut marker, but if you have low secretory IgA, usually relates to a leaky gut. 

I used to do a lot of leaky gut testing. I noticed that just about everybody who had a low secretory IgA also tested positive for a leaky gut. Secretory IgA serves as protection. You definitely want to have healthy secretory IgA levels. A lot of people deal with chronic stress. A lot of people do have lower or depressed secretory IgA.

Also, chronic stress causes imbalances in the parasympathetic nervous system, which is the rest and digest system. Having imbalances here can lead to digestive issues. It can also cause mood disorders, like anxiety. 

What can you do? No matter how good you are at managing stress, it’s always going to be a factor. The problem is most people don’t do anything to manage stress. Even if you block out time to manage stress, it still might be a factor, but blocking out time for stress management still could be greatly beneficial. 

I recommend blocking out five minutes per day to start. Even just doing some simple deep breathing. Walking, exercising. I know walking is relaxing. I’m not saying it’s not a form of stress management. You want things that really activate your parasympathetic nervous system. If you are doing cardiac exercise, like cardio exercise or resistance exercise, that is more of a sympathetic activity. 

Doing some deep breathing five minutes per day can help. Of course, longer than this is better. The goal is to get into the routine of stress handling. If you’re in the routine of blocking out five minutes per day seven days a week, you could start increasing the duration. 

Another thing you could do is incorporate Vagus nerve exercises. Mind/body medicine is stimulating the Vagus nerve. That’s a Vagus nerve exercise. Vigorous gargling is another Vagus nerve exercise. Singing out loud, either in the shower or in your car. It doesn’t matter where it is. That also stimulates the Vagus nerve. 

Cold showers. Cold plunges, too. I can’t say I’m a big cold plunger. I’m not a big fan of cold plunges personally; it’s something I don’t do, but I do cold showers. Rotate hot and cold showers. If you are willing to do cold plunges, that could also activate the Vagus nerve. Vagus nerve exercises can make a big difference as well. 

Gut healing roadblock #6: gut infections and overgrowths. I mentioned H-pylori. That’s something I commonly see. It definitely could affect the gut. I mentioned how it could be a factor with low stomach acid and could potentially increase permeability of the gut. 

Parasites also could affect gut permeability. There are other infections. I won’t name all of them here. I will say Yersinia enterocolitica is another one. Giardia is a parasite. There are a lot of infections that could affect permeability of the gut. Not all of them will.

If you do a comprehensive stool panel, and you see some dysbiosis, which is imbalance of the gut flora, it doesn’t always mean that you’re going to have a leaky gut, for example. It really depends on which and how many microbes are out of balance. 

Candida is not an infection, but you could have too much candida, so a candida overgrowth. That could affect permeability of the gut. 

There is also SIBO, small intestinal bacterial overgrowth. This can also lead to an increase in intestinal permeability. 

Gut infections and overgrowths are reasons why some people don’t heal. In most cases, testing is the best way. It’s not perfect. For parasites, you could do testing and have false negative results with all of these. 

I do like testing though. I know there are practitioners out there, including some who have been on the podcast, who don’t like testing. They just treat everybody for parasites and other things without testing. 

I realize it’s a catch-22. It’s not perfect, and the testing is not free. It can get expensive when you do functional medicine testing. If at all possible, I’d like to identify what is actually causing the leaky gut when it comes to gut infections and overgrowths. 

If we’re suspecting a parasite, and we do testing that comes back negative, at that point, I’m okay with treating the parasite. I usually like to confirm it. Admittedly, it can be challenging. Obviously, different perspectives out there.

The seventh and final gut healing roadblock I’d like to discuss is environmental toxins and toxicants. Certain environmental toxins and toxicants can disrupt the gut and/or prevent it from healing. 

I mentioned glyphosate earlier. It is the active ingredient in the herbicide Roundup. It can cause dysbiosis, which in turn could cause that increase in intestinal permeability. 

Xenoestrogens, including microplastics, act as endocrine-disrupting chemicals. They could directly affect the thyroid. They also have been shown to affect permeability of the gut. I didn’t know this until recently. I have done a lot of research over the years with xenoestrogens, but I didn’t realize the impact they could have on the gut barrier. Another reason you want to minimize your exposure to plastics.

Mycotoxins from mold can potentially affect the intestinal barrier. 

Certain heavy metals, including mercury, can also affect the intestinal barrier and the thyroid directly and the immune system in different ways. 

Medications of course. Antibiotics, we all know that they can cause a leaky gut. I mentioned PPIs before. These also can cause a leaky gut. Plus they block the acid, which breaks down nutrients, so you don’t have that ability or an impaired ability.

I mentioned stomach acid is important for keeping bacteria and other pathogens in check. If you are taking acid blockers, it will make you more susceptible to gut infections and overgrowths, which is another roadblock.

For those with hyperthyroidism, antithyroid medication also can disrupt the gut. Risk versus benefits. This doesn’t mean that you should not take antithyroid medication and never take antibiotics. There is a time and place for these. 

I have worked with a lot of people over the years who have taken antithyroid medication, such as methimazole or PTU, and were able to restore their health. It might take a little bit longer. Everybody is different. Depends on how high of a dose of medication you’re taking. Like I said, it’s all risk versus benefit. Without question, the research shows they can affect the gut.

These are the seven gut healing roadblocks that could prevent your thyroid from healing. As usual, I hope you found the information to be valuable. I look forward to catching you in the next episode.

Recently, I interviewed Dr. Tom O’Bryan, and he explains why autoimmunity and cognitive decline don’t start overnight and the early patterns for detection He also encourages how specialized tests like the Total Toxin Burden and Neuro Zoomer can uncover root causes that aren’t always obvious, especially when traditional labs come back “normal.” . If you would prefer to listen to the interview you can access it by Clicking Here.

Dr. Eric Osansky: 

I am super excited to chat with Dr. Tom O’Bryan. We are going to be having a comprehensive discussion on how you can fix your brain. Very excited to talk about this. Let me dive into Dr. Tom’s short but sweet bio.

Dr. Tom O’Bryan is considered the Sherlock Holmes for chronic disease and teaches that recognizing and addressing the underlying mechanisms that activate an immune response is the map to the highway toward better health. He holds teaching faculty positions with the Institute for Functional Medicine and the National University of Health Sciences. Welcome, Dr. Tom. 

Dr. Tom O’Bryan: 

Thank you so much. Pleasure to be with you, Dr. Eric. 

Dr. Eric:

 I’m really looking forward to this conversation. I think the first time I saw you was at the Institute for Functional Medicine many years ago. It might have been in 2015/2016. You have been doing this a long time, even before then. We are both chiropractors. Again, you really dive deep into autoimmunity. What led you down this path to write your books and doing what you’re doing currently? 

Dr. Tom: 

It started when I was in my internship. My wife at the time, we couldn’t get pregnant. I called the seven most famous holistic doctors I had ever heard of. I called George Goodheart, Jonathan Wright. Any of the famous doctors that I had heard of. I asked them all, “What do you do for infertility?” They all told me what they would do, and I wrote it all down. I put a program together. We were pregnant in six weeks.

Dr. Eric: 

Wow.

Dr. Tom: 

We had housing on campus, and my neighbors asked if I’d work with them. They’d been through artificial insemination, and nothing had worked for them. I said, “I don’t know if it will help, but I don’t think it will hurt you.” They were pregnant in three months. 

We’re now four months’ pregnant, and we’re hot to trot. We’re telling the world how excited we are and what we’re finding out. One of our friends would have a sister in Wisconsin. We were in school in Chicago. She would call and say, “Can I drive down and see you please?” I wasn’t seeing patients, but I couldn’t say no. They’d come to my dorm room, and I was treating patients out of my dorm room. 

The president of the college called me in one day and said, “We can’t do this.” I said I understood, and I kept doing it. I was hot to help people. 

We helped a lot of people with pregnancy issues, whether it was infertility or recurrent miscarriages or a history of premature births. We found that consistently, time after time, every single one of them had some common links.

First, we had to make sure that all the parts were working, that there was nothing organically that made it impossible for pregnancy. Then there was one consistent mechanism that was always there. Every hormone-related problem. 

At the time, I was realizing everyone has hormone-related problems has inflammation. They have lifestyle habits, which where they live, if they live in a moldy house or are eating foods that are triggering inflammation in their body, or they have high levels of arsenic or lead or some other toxin in their body. 

When we would address those triggers of inflammation, then they always felt better every single time. Most of the time, surprisingly, within a few months, we’re getting a call, “We’re pregnant!” 

That started me off. I opened my practice, already practicing functional medicine in 1980. I happened to be in Dr. Jeff Bland’s first talk ever in Chicago in 1978. I had heard these concepts about functional medicine. As I was learning all of the technical things about being a chiropractic physician, a nutritionist, I was absorbing them from the ideas of functional medicine, which means identifying the triggers of inflammation and getting those triggers out there. Watch and see if the body starts functioning better. The results have been just miraculous over the last 40 years. It’s a long time. 

That got me into all of this. My entire career has been based on understanding the principles and investigating to see what are the triggers of inflammation for each individual patient that comes in? They’re always different. There are some common ones, but it’s always unique to the individual. There is no shotgun package approach that you can do. 

That’s what the book You Can Fix Your Brain is all about: understanding there are so many triggers to the inflammatory cascade in your brain. Here is how you identify them. Here is what some of the clues are as to where to look. That’s what the brain is about, with 36 to-dos for the brain. 

I will just give you one example here. There are a number of studies now that show that when women have high levels of phthalates in their body—phthalates are chemicals used to mold plastic. 

I will give you an example of a study. 2016, Chicago, 136 women in the eighth month of pregnancy. They measure their urine for how many phthalates they have in their urine. It’s the residue from plastics. We have all heard about microplastics and now nanoplastics and how they are a big problem. 

They measured in the urine how much plastic chemicals they have. They put the results into fourths. The lowest amount in the urine, the next lowest, the third, and the highest amount. Then they watched the offspring of those pregnancies. 

When those children turned seven years old, the researchers reached back out and said, “Hi, it’s time now to do the Wexler IQ test,” which is the official IQ test. There is not much in medicine that is “all” or “every,” but every single child whose mother was in the highest category of phthalates in urine during pregnancy, compared to the children whose mothers were in the lowest category, every single child in the highest category, their IQ was seven points lower. 6.7-7.6 points lower. Every one of them. 

That doesn’t mean anything to anybody until you understand a one-point difference in IQ is noticeable. A seven-point difference is the difference between a child working really hard, getting straight As in school, and a child working really hard, getting straight B-/Cs in school. This child doesn’t have a chance in hell of ever excelling. Their brain never developed to its genetic potential in utero. 

When you learn that, and there are many studies that give that kind of information, looking from one way or another, when you learn that it’s the toxicity in Mom and Dad that has a huge contribution to babies’ brain function as they grow up, years and years after being in the womb, then you understand why I say every couple of child-bearing age that wants to start a family needs to be tested first to see how many toxins do they have in their body right now? If they’re high, you need to take the time to get those out of there before you try for pregnancy.

I will give you one more example. About 16 months ago, a paper came out of men at infertility centers. They found that the glyphosate level, which is a chemical used on genetically modified foods, in men’s semen was 400% higher than the glyphosate levels in their blood. You mean the semen that is made in the testicles, the concentration of glyphosate is 4x higher than in the guy’s blood? Yes, it accumulates in the testicles in men. 

The result is that the DNA gets damaged because of glyphosate. There are studies that show all that. The DNA gets damaged, which then damages the sperm that is in the semen, and the semen carries the sperm with ejaculation into the woman. The pregnancy, if it’s from a damaged sperm, puts the child at risk that they never develop to what their genetic potential could be. People don’t know this. 

Don’t believe me. Read my book. Look at all the studies. There are 346 studies in that book. “That can’t be true! My doctors, the experts at the fertility center,” who are charging you tens of thousands of dollars, never check this stuff. They don’t see it. They want to make sure the woman’s fallopian tubes are open, and she has the eggs and enough hormones. That’s all good. But that’s technology from 1990 that is not cutting-edge. You have to see if this couple is so toxic that the levels are accumulatively putting them at risk for damaging the sperm and damaging the eggs. We have never had a couple come back normal on a first test.

Dr. Eric: 

That was my question. I was going to ask you that. You said if they’re high, treat it. My question to you was have you ever done a test on a couple where it looked good? 

Dr. Tom: 

No, never. These tests are highly accurate. This world we’re living in today is more toxic than ever before in history. People are accumulating more toxins at earlier ages than ever before. Humans do not have the detoxification mechanisms to deal with all of these chemicals. 

Our immune systems are designed by what allowed our ancestors to survive. We carry the genes of our ancestors. The ancestors who survived and reproduced and produce the lineage that we came from now, their immune systems were designed to handle specific things that were risk factors to kill them: bugs, parasites, viruses, mold, fungus, and bacteria. That’s it. We don’t have any aspect of our immune system to deal with lead poisoning. We don’t have any aspect of our immune system to deal with red dye #42. 

When we get exposed to all of these things, the immune system operates in the only way it can when there is a threat. That means the immune system produces inflammation. The inflammation tries to kill this thing, but you can’t kill red dye #42. It just sits in your cell. There is not more inflammation; the damage is the cells around that. 

We know now from the Center for Disease Control (CDC) that 14 of the 15 top causes of death are chronic inflammatory diseases. It’s always inflammation, whether it’s cognitive decline, dementia, diabetes, atherosclerosis, heart disease, rheumatoid arthritis, autoimmune diseases. They all are inflammatory diseases. It’s an immune system that has been activated to protect you. The immune system isn’t going crazy; it’s trying to protect you. 

The question is what is it trying to protect you from? This is basic 101, common sense stuff that always has to be addressed. There is no profit in this, so it’s not taught in medical schools. I’m not challenging the students who went to the school and then became doctors, but this is what they have learned. They have learned that you do these tests to identify what they’re checking for, and then you write a prescription. Or you’re doing some other invasive therapy. But they’re not taught these basic 101 principles, so they just don’t know. 

That’s why you have such a successful track record working with infertility couples when you include this approach. I’m not saying only this approach, but you include this approach. You always test for this first. “How toxic are you, Mr. and Mrs. so-and-so?” When the test results come back, and you do an “Oh my god, I had no idea,” then you tell the patient, “Do not get pregnant until we get this stuff out of your body. Then you have a better chance of baby developing to their genetic potential,” whatever their potential is. You’re not going to put the emergency brakes on their development. 

You ever back out of a driveway, and you say, “What’s wrong with this car? It’s moving, but it’s not moving fast.” The emergency brake. You let go of the emergency brake, and you back up just fine. Toxicity is a huge emergency brake on brain function in general, which is what this topic is, but on infertility. It’s a huge emergency brake that you just have to rule out. 

You just have to do the right, simple tests to rule it out. A simple urine test will tell you, do you have too many toxins in your body? The urine test is called the Total Tox Burden. It looks at 87 different markers in one simple urine test. It’s just remarkable. It’s a highly accurate test. If you’re clean, great, go for it. Let’s figure out what else might be inhibiting you having a successful pregnancy. We don’t have to pause on your attempts right now. 

Dr. Eric: 

I like to play devil’s advocate. I’m going to ask you something, and I’m pretty sure I know what the response is. 

Dr. Tom: 

Sure. 

Dr. Eric: 

Since everybody you tested for tests positive for toxins, why do the testing at all? Why not just jump into detoxification? 

Dr. Tom: 

That’s a really good question. The answer is, you can do detoxification to begin with, and people start feeling better pretty quickly. If you don’t know that you had 24 different toxins, and now after your detox protocol, you have seven left, but you feel great. You still have this stuff going on that is not contributing to the lousy way you were feeling. 

You have a baseline. If you don’t have a baseline, you’re shooting in the dark. I call it “shotgun medicine.” We know detox always helps, so let’s just put everybody on a detox program. If you want, I guess it’d be hard to argue with, don’t try and get pregnant, do the detox program, then we will do the test and see what’s left. It is always better because you’re asking people to change their lifestyle, their basic food selections, living environment sometimes. 

You’ve heard now recently that the polyethylene materials in many of these athletic clothes that people are wearing, the gym shorts and bras, cause all kinds of hormone problems for people. But you don’t feel bad when you put on a pair of gym shorts, and you go out for a run or exercise, and you’re sweating. You’re opening up your pores, which means these polyethylene chemicals, toxins, and phthalates are coming in through your testicles or breasts. You don’t know that’s happening. You can’t feel that. 

If you don’t have a baseline, and then you recheck 2-3 months later, depending on what your detox protocols are and what your starting point is, you’re shooting in the dark. 

Dr. Eric: 

Makes sense. You get that baseline, and you can see exactly how many toxins you have, the levels they’re at. After addressing that, you can see the improvements. Hopefully, they will be greatly reduced, within the lab range. But you don’t know unless you retest. Maybe you have a few dozen. Makes sense.

Inflammation essentially, for those who aren’t taking this approach, it’s really starting in the womb, it sounds like. 

Dr. Tom: 

It really does. It starts pre-conception. My new book that I’m writing now, it will be a year before it’s out. The working title is Healthy Conception, Healthy Pregnancy, Healthy Delivery, Happy Baby. You have to deal with all four categories. This world we’re living in today, the statistics of the percentage of our children who not only are obese, but the percentage of our children with ADD or autism or on antidepressant or antianxiety medication is going through the roof. Only in the U.S. In other countries, it’s not as bad; it’s bad, but not as bad as in the U.S. It’s startling to look down the road and see what’s happening with our most precious treasure, our next generation, our children. 

Dr. Eric: 

We will have to bring you back on once you get that book released in 2026. 

Dr. Tom: 

Yes, thank you. 

Dr. Eric: 

When these chemicals affect the brain, they also affect other areas, including the gut. Can you talk a little bit about the relationship between the blood-brain barrier and the gut barrier? 

Dr. Tom: 

The blood-brain barrier is the most tight of any barrier in the body. Some things can get through, but most things can’t. That’s the blood-brain barrier. 

The gut barrier is the same. This is how you think about it. Your digestive tract is a tube that goes from the mouth to the other end. One big, long tube. 20-25 feet long. The inside of the tube is lined with cheesecloth. 

When you eat food, think of proteins like a pearl necklace. The acid in your stomach undoes the clasp of the pearl necklace. Now you have a string of pearls. It’s your digestive enzymes in your mouth and your gut that act like scissors to cut the pearl necklace into smaller and smaller pieces. They’re called peptides. Each piece gets smaller and smaller until you are down to each pearl of the necklace. That’s called an amino acid. We know those as the building blocks for new muscle cells, new bone cells, new brain cells. The amino acids are raw material to build new cells to keep us young and strong and healthy. 

When you eat a hamburger, most of us take 3-4 chews, and then we gulp down. We should chew it 15-20 times, but we don’t. We gulp. There is no way that ground meat can get into your bloodstream. There is no way. If it does, you might die. It’s not okay. It has to be broken down into each pearl of the pearl necklace down to the amino acids. Then they fit right through the cheesecloth and get into the bloodstream. 

Your bloodstream is just a highway. Everything is going in the same direction, but it’s like bumper cars going in there. They are all bouncing into each other. These are the raw materials to make new cells. That’s the job of the cheesecloth, is to restrict so only certain-sized molecules can get through.

When you get a tear in the cheesecloth, that’s called leaky gut. Now bigger molecules, called macro molecules, get through into the bloodstream before they should be able to get through. There is nothing wrong with them. It’s good food. They have to be digested down to each pearl of the pearl necklace. If you have tears in the cheesecloth, some of those macro molecules can get through before they have been digested completely. 

Now, they’re on the highway, these big clumps of meat in this example. The immune system says, “Whoa, what’s that? I better fight that.” You start making antibodies to beef or chicken or tomatoes or bananas. It doesn’t matter what the food is. if you have a leaky gut, and these molecules get through into the bloodstream, your immune system is trying to protect you from this threat and will make antibodies to fight that food. 

Those are the people who do 96 food panel tests and come back sensitive to 25 different foods. “That’s everything I eat!” Of course, it is. It’s your immune system trying to protect you from these macro molecules. You heal the gut, and two months, six months from now, whenever you retest, you are sensitive to two, maybe three foods. Those are the ones you stay away from forever. That’s the leaky gut.

The same thing happens in the brain. You have a cheesecloth around the blood vessels in the brain. Your brain is so important that about 2% of the body weight is the brain. At any time, the brain has 18-20% of the body’s blood inside it. There are thousands of tiny little blood vessels in the brain. They all have this cheesecloth on the inside of the blood vessel to make sure nothing gets into the brain tissue that is not supposed to.

When you have a leaky brain, that’s why checking your brain for inflammation is so important. I can’t find any science to validate this, but now I am telling you this is my opinion. Everything else I am telling you is not; that’s what they are teaching at Harvard Medical School. But this is my opinion: that’s why as a doctor, as a clinician, when you identify the inflammation in the brain, you’re identifying one of the earliest organs that is being damaged by too much inflammation. 

I’d like to show you a few slides if I can. It might put this in perspective. Would that be okay? 

Dr. Eric: 

That would be awesome. 

Dr. Tom: 

Perfect. Here we go. I am going to get geeky with you for a minute. This is Melissa Arbuckle. She works at the VA. She looked at one VA center for the number of people that were diagnosed with the autoimmune disease lupus, systemic lupus erythematosus. She found there were 132, I think it was, people in this one center. 

If they are in a VA center for treatment, they’re veterans. If they’re veterans, they were in the armed forces. When they were in the armed forces, when they were healthy in the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, they had their blood drawn many times over the years for one reason or another. What most people don’t know is the government has been saving and freezing most of that blood since 1978. They have tens of millions of samples of our servicepeople’s blood. 

Dr. Arbuckle knew this. She asked for permission to look at the frozen blood of the currently diagnosed lupus patients when they were healthy in the armed forces. She got that permission. What did she find? 

As she wrote here in the New England Journal of Medicine—there are seven antibodies for lupus—all seven antibodies are elevated years before a person has a symptom. They have no symptoms. They feel fine. I call it the “I feel fine” syndrome. “I don’t need to test anything; I feel fine.” The antibodies are elevated. 

By definition, when you have elevated antibodies, you’re killing off more tissue than you’re making. Every cell in your body regenerates every seven years. Some quick, some slow. How does that happen? Your immune system has to get rid of the old, damaged ells to make room for the new cells. That makes sense. 

How does it do that? The process is called autophagy, which means getting rid of the old, damaged cells to make room for the new cells. Antibodies are a part of that. 

You have a normal level of antibodies to your thyroid. I will use that as an example. In most labs, it’s about 36 antibodies. That’s normal. When you have elevated levels of antibodies, you’re killing off more cells than you’re making. By definition. That’s what elevation means.

Every single lupus patient had all seven antibodies elevated years before they ever had a symptom, killing off tissue while they felt “fine.” She did this graph. The zero line is not zero antibodies; it’s the normal level. You see all seven of them elevated five years before they ever have a symptom. Some of them were elevated 11 years. All of them were elevated at least five years before they ever had a symptom.

Then they hit that peak of killing off cells for 5-11 years. Then they start getting symptoms. Within a few months, they get the diagnosis of lupus. 

She put this drawing together. She just made this up. She said, “You have a normal level of antibodies.” Getting rid of old cells to make room for new cells. Then they have what she called benign cells. There were no symptoms, so she called it “benign.” Then you have pathogenic, meaning you are getting some symptoms now. Then you get diagnosed with a disease. 

It started way back at normal, going into benign. That is when it started. Right there in what we call the prodromal period, which means before symptoms. That is where it starts. I want you to remember that word “prodromal,” before symptoms. Here you see, and you understand, during this benign period, we are killing off cells. You don’t have any symptoms, so you feel fine. Yes, okay, that’s called the prodromal period. 

Let’s get to the brain. Back in 2017, most front pages of newspapers around the country said Alzheimer’s will bankrupt Medicare. This is a real problem. The numbers were really scary. They put a commission together of the world’s leading scientists for Alzheimer’s and said, “Figure out what we’re going to do about this.” Two years before they wrote their report. 

They published their report way back in July 2019. No one paid any attention to it whatsoever. This is when the virus came out that scared everybody and was on the front page every day in the newspapers. This never made any headway at all. 

I jumped up and down when I saw the drawing they put in here because it explains so much. Here it is. Notice there is a prodromal period in the development of Alzheimer’s. It goes for 20-25 years of elevated antibodies, killing off tissue, while you are in the “I feel fine” syndrome. 

Then it moves into the “Where did I park my car in the parking lot?” Short-term memory loss. “Where are my keys?” That goes on for 5-7 years. Now you’re 25-30 years into inflammation in your brain killing off tissue. Then you get diagnosed with mild Alzheimer’s, as if it came on yesterday or in the last couple months. It’s been occurring for 25 years. You just never knew it because it was in the benign period of killing off cells before you killed off so many cells that the tissue couldn’t function right anymore.

This comes from a Blue Cross/Blue Shield study in February 2020 that nobody paid attention to because of the virus. They said, “We have a problem here.” In a four-year period, there was a huge increase in claims for Alzheimer’s. This was the one that really scared me. A 407% increase in claims for Alzheimer’s in 30-44 years old. 407% increase. 

People are getting sick, inflamed in their childhood because there are so many toxins now. Nobody pays any attention to it, killing off brain cells. You get diagnosed with depression or Alzheimer’s. They give you medications for that. Nobody identifies the inflammation in the brain. Where is the inflammation coming from? 

This is the pandemic that no one is talking about. This is a test. It’s a simple blood test. You do this test, and it looks at 53 markers of inflammation in the brain. You pay $500 to do this test, and you find out if you have inflammation in your brain right now. It’s not good, but no one comes back normal on this test or on the toxin test. 

They don’t come back normal because everyone is being exposed to all of these toxins, and blood pools in the brain. The inflammatory markers are in the blood, sitting in the brain, causing more tearing of the cheesecloth. The leaky brain that is getting these macro molecules into the brain, activating the immune system, producing the antibodies that we’ve got. 

I’m hoping everyone will watch this once again. I know I just overwhelmed the hell out of you. I know I did. This is Ph. D level stuff. If I can get across to all of your listeners, Dr. Eric, that this is a basic, 101 concept, that 14 of the 15 top causes of death are inflammatory diseases, that inflammatory molecules sit in the brain longer than anywhere else in high concentration, and you can measure the inflammation in the brain, how many antibodies you have in your brain tissue that are elevated beyond normal levels, then you understand, “I really need to find out how I am throwing gasoline on the fire, causing all of this.” 

When you explore that and understand that, then you start noticing your brain is functioning better. You redo the test in about a year. Don’t do it beforehand because it will take a while to get the fire extinguishers to put the fire out. 

The first step is stop throwing gasoline on the fire. You have to figure out how I am throwing gasoline on the fire. A year later, you do the test. The first time, you had 19 markers elevated. Now, you have four. This means you’re on the right track. Keep it up. You’re doing great. No simple pill will ever fix this. 

That’s why I know of two drug pharmaceutical companies that closed their Alzheimer’s research departments. They realized they spent billions, but they will never find a pill to fix this. You can’t. It’s all of the different toxins and triggers. You have to identify all those and get them out of there. 

That’s functional medicine. That’s the work you do in your practice, why you have this thyroid podcast, so people can understand this stuff. What we’re talking about today is the real pandemic about brain function. 

There is a way to get through this. There is a way to identify where is the trigger, and what do we do about it?  

Dr. Eric: 

That was a pretty in-depth presentation. It was short, but still very detailed. The prodromal stage, that applies to all autoimmune conditions? With Hashimoto’s, they have that silent autoimmunity phase that could go on for 10-15 years. 

Dr. Tom: 

Every autoimmune disease goes through this spectrum. It’s called the spectrum of autoimmunity. Professor Yehuda Shoenfeld, one of the greats in the field, in Tel Aviv, Israel, he runs the immunology department at Tel Aviv University. 26, the last count that I know of, of the folks who received their Ph. D from him chair departments of immunology in medical schools in hospitals around the world. They’re his students. This is the godfather of all of it. He calls it the tautology of immunity. 

An easier word to understand it is the spectrum. It starts with normal levels of antibodies; benign levels; pathogenic levels; and the diagnosis of the disease. Every single autoimmune disease that they have examined goes through this same pathway. It’s no mystery anymore. 

Dr. Eric:

I want to clarify or reinforce what you mentioned. Your goal when it comes to auto antibodies isn’t to get them to zero, but to get them ideally within the range. If there are some antibodies present- 

Dr. Tom: 

They’re supposed to be there. They’re part of the autophagy process, to get rid of old, damaged cells. When you stop making new cells, you can’t make new cells unless you get rid of the old cells, or else you will blow up like a balloon. When you stop making new cells, you start aging really, really quickly because the old cells are dying off. You have more dis-ease. 

Dr. Eric: 

As far as who should do the testing. You mentioned with the toxin tests, anyone looking to conceive. Should everyone who has an autoimmune condition like Graves’ or Hashimoto’s also consider testing for toxins? Is that what you recommend in your practice, for everybody to do the total toxin test? 

Dr. Tom: 

Correct. I just saw a woman this afternoon with Graves’. I see one patient every two weeks or so by Zoom. I want five years of their health history before I ever talk to them. Every patient I see does a minimum of four tests. These are not specific just to your symptoms; these are specific to the inflammatory cascade; 14 of the 15 top causes of death are chronic inflammatory diseases. Doesn’t matter what you’ve got. It’s always inflammation. That’s the root mechanism.

Doctors sometimes talk about root cause. We did a genetic test. You have this gene, which is the root cause of your problems. No, it’s not. Genes are important, but they are not the cause. Activation of the gene is the cause. There is one root mechanism. 

What you want to do, Mrs. Patient, you have the gene for Alzheimer’s. That doesn’t mean you’re getting Alzheimer’s. Genes operate on dimmer switches. We want to dim that gene down, so it doesn’t express itself. We want to turn up the genes for anti-inflammatory brain function. 

For example, we knew back in the 1990s that one cup of blueberries a day in three years, your brain is working as well as it was 13 years earlier. One cup of organic blueberries because of the toxicity in today’s world. We knew that a long time ago. 

You turn up the genes for antiinflammation, and you stop throwing gasoline on the fire once you identify what foods and toxins you have in your body. You get those out of there. You give the foods to turn on the genes for antiinflammation and regeneration. People get better. 

Six months from now, you go to church and haven’t seen somebody in a long time. “What happened to you? You look like a million bucks.” 

I’ll tell you what happened to me. I found out that I had all these phthalates in my urine, and I had arsenic poisoning, and I was sensitive to gluten. I got rid of all of that stuff. 

I got rid of nail polish that doesn’t have phthalates. Phthalates go in your bloodstream in 4-5 minutes, which is what makes the nail polish hard. 

I got rid of all my plastic storage containers, and I got glass storage containers. My book tells you how to do that. Here is three URLs for glass storage containers. 

I got plants in my house. We got rid of all of this stuff. My kids are better in school. They’re doing great. They’re happy. I’ve lost X number of pounds. My energy is up. My husband is sweeter than ever. My life is great because I took the time to learn all of this stuff that I had no idea about. That’s what happens to most people if they focus and do this. 

First thing you have to do is test and identify how are you throwing gasoline on the fire? The four tests I recommend are a Gut Zoomer, the Neural Zoomer Plus, the Wheat Zoomer, and the Total Tox Burden. Those four tests will identify if you have a leaky gut, a leaky brain, inflammation in your brain, a sensitivity to wheat, and the toxins that you’re accumulating. Is it mold? Phosphates? Petroleum products? That test looks at 87 different markers of inflammation: chemicals and toxins and heavy metals. You do those four tests. As a matter of fact, Dr. Eric, is it okay if I say this? 

Dr. Eric: 

Yes, we were chatting before about me looking into doing the Total Toxic Burden test. 

Dr. Tom: 

When I’m on stage, talking to doctors, I always challenge them. I say, “There is nobody’s health better than your own and your spouse.” You know them better than anyone else. Do these tests on you. You’ll be surprised and startled by what’s going on in your brain and what toxins you’ve accumulated. Now, you learned what to do about it. In six months to a year, you redo the test, and see, “Wow, I feel so much better. This is gone. This is gone. Normal. Arsenic is a little high but much better than it was.” You’ll see. 

Dr. Eric and I were talking before we turned on the recording. I said, “Eric, why don’t you and your wife do these tests together and invite all of your followers to do the tests? I’ll come back on in a few months, and we’ll interpret the tests. We’ll talk about what to do.” What was your response to that? 

Dr. Eric: 

My response was, “I don’t know if I want to see what the tests look like.” Again, I do a lot. I do sauna three times a week. I try to eat organic. It’s just one of those things where I know no matter what we do, there will still be a toxic burden. 

Dr. Tom: 

Right. That’s very human. “I don’t know if I want to know.” You think you’re stuck. You’re not stuck. You’re missing something. For example, mold in your house. It might not be seen. You can’t see it. You can’t smell it. You’re breathing it in every day over the course of many months. 

I had one patient come in. He was the president of a bank in Chicago. His staff called me. This is when I lived in California. They asked me to fly to Chicago to see Mr. so and so. “I don’t want to go. He can come here.” He and his wife decided for a holiday to fly out to Los Angeles and drive the coast and see California, from San Francisco to San Diego. I lived in San Diego. I don’t have an office when I lived there. I meet people by Zoom. I met them at a coffee shop, and we are sitting there talking. It took me about three minutes to ask. 

His problem was his brain wasn’t working anymore. He couldn’t focus. He had to take a leave of absence from his job because he couldn’t focus. He had been to the world’s best clinics. They tested everything. They could find nothing. MRIs, CTs, photo scans, everything that they did, they could find nothing. He had sent me those test results beforehand, so I could see from the provisional tests they had done, there was nothing.

It took about three minutes. We’re sitting there, and we had just gotten our coffee. I said to him, “So, when did your basement flood?” He went, “How did you know my basement flooded?” “Well, when did it flood?” “About a year and a half ago.” “When did your symptoms start?” “About eight months ago. Could that have something to do with my symptoms?” 

I’m originally from Chicago, and he lived in Chicago. Sometimes, you get rains and basements flood. His basement had flood, and they brought a crew in to clean it all up. They put dehumidifiers down there. The drywall had absorbed the water up the wall aways. When they cleaned the carpets, they pulled them, but the drywall. 

If you go home and drill a little couple holes in your drywall, have a professional come in to do it. You will find there is black mold in the walls. And there was. When they remediated the black mold, when they got out of the house, I told them not to go back in the house. If he wanted to go to work, he needed to live in a hotel until it is remediated. Do not go back to the house until then. 

He was back to work in a few weeks. His brain was working better. They remediated the house, and he was fine.

It doesn’t matter how much money you have, and you see the world’s best. They’re not trained in environmental toxins. Mayo Clinic, they are not trained in environmental toxins. It’s rare. Sometimes, you will find a doctor who has gone through the functional medicine training, and they know this stuff and are starting to deal with it. It’s just not commonly taught.  

Dr. Eric: 

I agree. I’ll take you up for that challenge by the way. I don’t know if my wife will agree, but I definitely will run that by her. Either way, I will. 

Dr. Tom: 

Marvelous. I suggest you send an announcement out to all your followers. Tell them you will do the test, and if they do it, they will get a free interpretation from Dr. O’Bryan. You can find out. I promise you, it doesn’t matter what you find. It’s all reversible. The more problems you have. I’ve known this concept for a long time. 

When I had my office, people would come for their first exam. They’re nervous of course. We run some tests and make a general recommendation of a general diet to follow. Come back in two weeks. The test results will be here. They come back and are always very nervous. They will sit down, and I am looking at the results. 

I say: I have some good news for you. You’re a mess. Look at this. This is out. This is out. This is out. I’m smiling. This is so great. Now we know why you feel the way you do. Now we know. Now we’re going to fix it. This will take two weeks. This will take 4-5 months. This one will take a while, but you should feel better within a few weeks. It won’t take long, but you will have some relapses in there most likely as we’re working because you’ll cheat. You’ll go out to eat something you shouldn’t eat. You will feel sick as can be the next day. You will call me, and I will say, “Good, I’m glad you don’t feel well. Now you know. Don’t eat that stuff.” 

Dr. Eric: 

Agreed. 

Dr. Tom: 

This is functional medicine. You have to identify how you are throwing gasoline on the fire. When you do that, and you start to address that, you change the lifestyle. 

As clean as your lifestyle is, you’re still scared of what you find. That’s true. That’s true for all of us. When you find out, then you will put the time into learning what I do about it. Then you will start changing it.

Dr. Eric: 

Before we wrap it up, can I ask you one more question? 

Dr. Tom: 

Of course. 

Dr. Eric:

 You mentioned glyphosate earlier. You also mentioned the Wheat Zoomer. A common question people ask, and I’m sure you get this all the time, too. And you’re in Italy right now. I heard it’s fine to eat wheat/gluten outside of the United States, but not in the United States. Maybe because of the glyphosate that is within the United States. Especially with autoimmune conditions, but I know you recommend everyone to avoid gluten. Does it make a difference as far as gluten? 

Dr. Tom: 

I understand the question. Happy to answer it. A couple of things. First, I never recommend everyone give up wheat. What I recommend is if you have a health issue, just test to see if your immune system is fighting wheat. Do the right test. It’s called the Wheat Zoomer because you zoom in on a problem. That’s the first thing.

Secondly, glyphosate’s here in Italy. That’s not it. The reason people go to Italy or Europe and eat wheat and don’t have the symptoms they have when they eat wheat in the U.S. is primarily one reason. It is the FODMAPS, the fermentable carbohydrates in wheat, that cause the bloating, gas, abdominal cramps, and pain. When you eat wheat, you feel it. It’s the FODMAPs, not the gluten. 

Only 9% of people who have gas, bloating, and abdominal pain from wheat have a problem with gluten. 93% have a problem with FODMAPs in wheat, not the protein in wheat. The immune system fights the proteins. You may get the migraines. You may get the psoriasis. You may get the Hashimoto’s. But you don’t get the gut symptoms from the gluten. You do activate the immune system from gluten, but it’s the FODMAPs that activate the bloating and the gas in the gut. 

The wheat in Europe is lower in FODMAPs, but it still has the gluten. When you eat the wheat in Europe, you still activate the immune system and get more thyroid antibodies or brain antibodies or skin, whatever your vulnerability is. You still get all of that regression and activated immune system, but you don’t get the bloating. You think it’s fine to eat wheat in Europe. It’s not. 

That’s one of the kinds of detail that I have in my Certified Gluten-free Practitioner course that is online. When our doctors and health coaches take the CGP course, they have it down. They understand all of this. Here are the studies; here is the science. They get it. 

I recommend every healthcare practitioner take the CGP course. I always tell them, if there is anything you don’t like about it, if it didn’t give you more information than you ever could have found in the past, we’ll give you a refund. It’s okay. We have never had a request for a refund.

That one answer I just gave you will answer for so many people this concept of it’s safe to eat wheat in Europe. No, it’s not. You will bring back your MS symptoms if you eat wheat in Europe. 

Dr. Eric: 

Thank you, that makes sense. Thank you for this conversation. Looking forward to having you back after I and many of my followers hopefully do the testing to have you help with the interpretation. Where can people find out more about you, Dr. Tom? 

Dr. Tom: 

The website is TheDr.com. Don’t spell the word “doctor” out. 

Dr. Eric: 

Wonderful. Easy enough. Thanks again, Dr. Tom. This was great. I’m sure the listeners learned a lot, and so did I . 

Dr. Tom: 

Thank you, Dr. Eric. Great to be with you.

Recently, I interviewed Lucy Hutchings,  who is a Registered dietitian. In this episode she breaks down why perimenopause symptoms like brain fog, belly fat, and poor sleep are common but absolutely not something you just have to live with. She shares how nutrition, strength training, and simple daily habits can gently support your hormones without extremes. If you would prefer to listen to the interview you can access it by Clicking Here.

Dr. Eric Osansky: 

Excited to chat with Lucy Hutchings, as we are going to be chatting about perimenopause, sugar cravings. Let’s go ahead and dive into Lucy’s impressive bio here. 

Lucy Hutchings is a registered dietician and the founder of Wellness from Within Nutrition, where she helps busy women, especially those in perimenopause, ditch belly fat, reduce inflammation, and feel amazing in their own skin without fad diets or intense restrictions. She has over 16 years of experience and a holistic, realistic approach. Lucy guides women toward sustainable results through nourishing foods, hormone balance, and simple lifestyle shifts. 

She is also the host of The Healthy Mama Podcast, where I was also a guest on her podcast. On this podcast, she shares practical tips and inspiring conversations to support women on their wellness journeys. As a busy mom of three, Lucy understands the real-life challenges her clients face and is passionate about helping them thrive in this season of life.

Thanks for joining us, Lucy. 

Lucy Hutchings: 

Thank you so much for having me. 

Dr. Eric: 

Looking forward to chatting about perimenopause and some other things as well. Let’s get a little bit more of your background. What led you to focus on perimenopause? How long have you had The Healthy Mama Podcast for? 

Lucy: 

Over three years now. It’s been a while. 

Dr. Eric: 

Close to mine. Mine is about 3.5 years as we record this. Very cool. Let’s get more of your background. 

Lucy: 

Sure. What led me to be working with women in perimenopause, a lot of it has to do with the fact that I’m 45. I think a lot of the things that I’ve been experiencing, and I see the clients I’m working with also experience is my heart goes out to those women who are my age and older that are struggling. That just kills me. It doesn’t need to be this way. We don’t need to suffer going through perimenopause and menopause. 

We’re not getting the best supportive information from our doctors, from social media, from our friends and family. We just get a lot of poor advice. That leads us down this path of suffering through perimenopause and menopause.

Our hormones are really not balanced, and we are now struggling with inflammation and cholesterol problems and blood pressure problems. The list builds and builds, and we don’t know what to do about it. There is not a lot of info out there. That’s where my passion lies: helping these women figure it out. 

Dr. Eric: 

It’s safe to say then that a lot of perimenopausal symptoms are common but not necessarily normal? 

Lucy: 

Absolutely. We think this is the way it’s supposed to be. We think we are just going to have brain fog, stubborn belly fat, fatigue, poor sleep, hot flashes, and sugar cravings. That’s just the way it is. 

Actually, we don’t have to have all those symptoms. There are so many things we can do through diet, lifestyle. That will help us have a smooth ride during this time. If we are supporting our body the right way, we don’t have to have these huge mood swings and irritability and the anxiety. 

The way our mental health works during perimenopause and menopause is it often seems like we are dealing with depression or anxiety or low mood. Some of it is just about our hormones fluctuating. We need to support our bodies and our lives a little bit better than what we’re doing right now. 

Dr. Eric: 

Definitely agree with that. Diet and lifestyle play a big role in helping these women. I’d like you to talk a little bit about stress. How much of an impact does stress have on hormones at least being a contributing factor when it comes to these symptoms? 

Lucy: 

Stress is a pretty huge one. So many of us are dealing with it between our job or our family. We are often at the peak of our career, so maybe we have a lot going on with our career. Maybe we have teenagers or kids who are getting older, so we are dealing with that. Some of us also are taking care of our parents. I am actually taking care of my 101-year-old grandmother. We have other loved ones in our lives we might be caring for. Caring for our house. I am still trying to be a good mom and wife. There is a lot of stress that can build up.

This stress increases cortisol. That leads to storing of belly fat. Also, stress brings us down. It makes it so maybe we don’t feel like we have time to spend time cooking a meal or chopping vegetables or going for a walk or getting the movement in that we need. The more stress we have that builds up, the more our gut health suffers. Our sleep suffers from the stress. Our mental health is suffering. Our mood is suffering. 

Then we have to figure out what is the root cause of the stress. Where is that coming from? Is it relationships? Is it our career? Is it our busy schedule? Once we figure that out, then we can move on.

I like to say our body isn’t broken. When we feel these symptoms, when we notice brain fog, stubborn weight, digestive problems, and bloating, these are messages from our body that things are out of whack. They are not in balance. We need to do something to improve that. 

Rather than feeling like “My body is broken, I hate my body, this is the worst time of my life,” we need to listen and say, “What can we do? What are these messages saying to us? How can I address it?” That’s how I like to think of it. 

Dr. Eric: 

I’m going to put you on the spot a little bit. You mentioned you’re 45 with three children. What do you do to manage stress? What are some of the things you do on a routine basis? 

Lucy: 

Great question. I’m right there with everyone, trying to raise my kids. We homeschool as well. We’re very involved. Plus I’m running a business and doing all the other things that I mentioned. It is a lot. Taking care of myself is really important. 

I never suggest to somebody that they need to live in a bubble and be completely stress-free. That’s not reality. That’s not how I want to live my life. That’s not going to happen. Then we have to figure out how to move ourselves out of that stressed state. 

How do we move ourselves from that sympathetic nervous system state to that parasympathetic nervous system state, where we are able to digest our food, rest, get good sleep, and repair and heal our bodies? All of that is so important.

Types of things that I do and I recommend for other people to do. Just take a minute or 30 seconds to breathe. Focused breath. Maybe it’s while you’re driving or in the shower or doing the dishes. You can take a moment and do some box breathing, circle breathing, whatever kind of focused breath you want, that help recenter you, so you are moving yourself out of that stressed state into that more relaxed state, letting your body know you are safe, even though your kid did something horrible or said something ridiculous, that you’re not actually in danger. You can allow your body to repair, heal, digest, all the things it needs to do. Breathing is an important one. 

Even short breaks, where you take a five-minute walk or a little bit of stretching. 

I also really protect my sleep. That goes hand in hand with stress. I make sure that I’m going to bed at a decent time, and I let myself get the sleep that I need. That really helps with stress as well. 

Dr. Eric: 

How much sleep do you recommend? 7.5-8 hours? 

Lucy: 

Exactly. You will know by the way you feel. Some people do need more than eight hours of sleep. Some people need less. I honestly feel pretty good on 7.5 hours. I don’t use an alarm. I let myself wake up naturally. Luckily, I am going to bed on time. I don’t have to be anywhere usually early in the morning since I work from home mostly. I’m able to do that. 

Other people need more sleep. You will know by how you feel. You shouldn’t feel horrible when you wake up. You should actually feel pretty good. I’m ready for the day. I’m not in pain. I’m not severely fatigued. I’m ready. Bright-eyed and bushy-tailed? Not always. But not horrible. 

Dr. Eric: 

Not dragging out of bed, taking a few hours, and needing four cups of coffee. 

Lucy: 

Yep, exactly. That’s another way to tell. If you’re really addicted or just reliant on caffeine to function and get through your day, then we really need to look at sleep. There may be reasons why you need caffeine so much. That will have a huge effect on your blood sugar, your insulin sensitivity, your hormone balance if you are not getting enough sleep. All that means is you will get that belly fat stored if you are not getting enough sleep. That’s the big thing that people think about. Now I am going to make changes because I won’t be able to lose belly fat until I actually get my sleep dialed in. 

Dr. Eric: 

I want to expand a little bit on the coffee. Since you’re a registered dietician, we will talk about food. If someone is sleeping okay, do you think it’s all right if the average person has a cup or two of coffee per day? I’m not a coffee drinker, so you won’t hurt my feelings if you say absolutely no coffee. I don’t know if you drink coffee. Overall, what’s your perspective on coffee and caffeine? 

Lucy: 

Good question. So many people drink it, so we need to know. I don’t have much against caffeine or coffee. There are a few recommendations that I do make. Make sure that you are not using it to get through the day. If you’re using it because you can’t function without it, we have to address that.

I also recommend good-quality coffee. I do prefer an organic coffee. There is less toxins and molds and things like that that we have to think about.

Also, the sweetener that goes in it. That’s another part of it. If you’re loading your coffee with artificially sweetened or sugar sweetened creamers, we have to talk about that. It won’t help inflammation or your hormone balance. 

In general, coffee isn’t much of a problem, but we have to notice how we are using it. No, I’m not a coffee drinker, but that’s because I’ve never really liked the taste very much. My husband is a huge coffee drinker. He sometimes gets a little bit addicted to it and uses it as a crutch. Then he has to reset himself. 

Dr. Eric: 

My wife also doesn’t drink a lot of coffee, but routinely, she has her morning cup of coffee. Like you, in the past, when I first was trying coffee as a teenager, a young adult, I would load it up with sugar the few times I had it. It’s good that I didn’t get into that routine of having coffee with a few teaspoons of sugar.

I do drink green tea, herbal tea. Over the last 10 years or so. It’s not something I have done all my life, but to get some of the benefits of that. 

Let’s go more into the importance of food when it comes to having healthy hormones. 

Lucy: 

This is a really important one. Sleep and stress may be top, but we do need to pay attention to our food. 

That is when I recommend more of an anti-inflammatory or hormone balancing type of diet. All I mean by that is a whole foods diet as much as we can. I’m a busy mom, and I understand that this doesn’t need to look perfect. This doesn’t mean I need to be in the kitchen every day all day long. There are lots of ways to make this a whole lot easier. That’s what I do. That’s my job and specialty, is to make this easy and doable for people. 

What we want to see is a lot of color. I do like to see a lot of veggies in someone’s diet. I do like to see plenty of protein. Often, we are not getting enough protein, especially earlier in the day, at a breakfast meal. 

I need to see healthy fats, too. That’s a tough one because so many of us have gone through the diet phases, the ‘80s and ‘90s and all the low-fat talk. When I talk to women about adding fats in, often it scares them. They feel like, “I’m trying to lose weight. I don’t want more fats in my diet. I don’t want more calories in my diet.” 

The important part of fat is it will help balance hormones, help with brain fog, help brain function, and help us feel more full. 

A huge thing is that it gets rid of sugar cravings. If you are dealing with sugar cravings, you want to have that protein and fat in your meals, like at every meal, so that you don’t have those sugar cravings leading you to that sugar in the ultra-processed foods. 

Dr. Eric: 

Makes sense. It’s really all about balance. A lot of people don’t eat enough healthy fats. A lot of people don’t eat enough protein. When it comes to protein, everybody is different, but is there a percentage? How much protein do you typically recommend to your clients? 

Lucy: 

Typically, we are starting with 25-30g per meal, around 100g in a day. That is a general guideline that most people can use. 

A lot of women actually need more than that. Just to get to that point can take some time and work. That is our first goal. There are calculations we can do to see how much more you need. If you are getting to 30g at each meal, 100g in a day, you’re doing pretty good right there. 

You will notice a difference. The women who I work with, when they start getting 30g at their breakfast, it makes a huge difference with their energy, with their cravings, how they feel throughout the day. That leads to weight loss in the end. 

If you’re getting enough calories, enough protein, enough healthy fats, then you’re not eating as many of the snacky foods and sugary and ultra-processed foods. You’re just not as hungry. You don’t need it as much. That’s a huge benefit. You can actually eat more food and feel more satisfied and still lose weight at the same time. It’s really quite incredible. 

It goes against so much of what we normally hear from the diet industry and what we have been taught growing up. It really is quite different, but I see it every day. Women are eating more protein and the amount of calories that they actually need, not a 1,200-calorie diet. They are actually eating enough to support their body, and the weight starts to come off. It’s pretty incredible. 

Dr. Eric: 

I can’t emphasize enough how important it is to get enough protein. You mentioned 20-30g per meal, about 100g per day. Does the type of protein make a difference, or does it depend on the person you are working with? There are animal sources of protein and legumes. I don’t know your stance on soy. There’s pea protein. There are other types. Are there any types of protein you don’t recommend for your clients to have? Or does it depend on the person? 

Lucy: 

It definitely depends on the person. But I do recommend animal proteins as much as possible for a good quality protein source. I do try and get really good quality animal proteins, too. For me, I’m buying the grass-fed beef, the organic chicken. If I can get it local, then I will do that. I happen to live in a place where there are a lot of farms around me. 

You can also order really good proteins online, too. I won’t list names. If you want to list names, go ahead. There are places where you can buy online and get grass-fed beef, wild-caught fish, organic chicken. The quality really does matter.

Now, I do have clients who are not going to eat animal proteins. They are vegetarian or have their own reasons. Yes, we are going to be getting that protein elsewhere. We will do it with legumes, maybe with some soy products. I am not a huge fan of soy, but sometimes if there is just not a lot of sources of protein in your diet, we do have to go that route. I would definitely recommend non-GMO, organic soy products. 

Eggs and fish for those who maybe aren’t going to eat red meat or chicken but will maybe eat fish. I do recommend wild-caught fish. I can get most of these things at the grocery store. 

I didn’t mention pork. Pork is one of those where for some people it can be inflammatory. I have not found a brand that I like at the grocery store. I usually reserve pork for the local farms or an online place that you know is good quality. I do happen to be able to get a lot of pork from the local farms around me. Luckily, I can do that. That is a little bit trickier. 

Dr. Eric: 

I’m with you as far as soy protein. It’s toward the bottom of the list. If they want to add additional protein with powder, I recommend hydrolyzed beef that is grass-fed. Usually, I have people go dairy-free, so I can’t recommend whey protein, but a good quality whey protein can also be a good source of protein as well. There are other ones, too. You have to be careful. With anything, you have to read ingredients. There are things other than the protein in these protein powders as well. 

Lucy: 

Absolutely. If someone can tolerate dairy, then I am recommending a grass-fed whey protein. But I am recommending something that is plain, unsweetened, unflavored. We don’t need that extra junk. I flavor it myself when I make my shake. I am usually adding a banana and some strawberries to make it taste good.

Right now, I am doing beef protein powder and experimenting with that. It’s great. It tastes good. No weird flavor. I’m loving it. For people who cannot do whey, because not everybody tolerates that very well, now we have a better option. Before, I had to go from whey to pea protein. I wasn’t super happy about that choice. Now I go from whey to beef protein and see if they can tolerate that. That’s definitely a good one. 

Dr. Eric: 

What are your thoughts on intermittent fasting? I hear about that all over now. Would love to get your perspective.

Lucy: 

Intermittent fasting has so many benefits. It’s very popular these days. A lot of people have had some success on it with weight loss.

The thing with intermittent fasting is it’s not for everybody. Sometimes, when you are going through perimenopause or menopause, it can increase cortisol a little bit. It is very much individualized. 

I would say most people should be going 12 hours overnight at a minimum. That usually just gets rid of any nighttime snacking, which is usually not the best choice. If we are going 12 hours, great. 

If I feel like a client is okay with something more like 14 hours, I will push there. Your body is getting some of the benefits of that intermittent fasting. It’s helping with detox and digestion and blood sugar. Those are all important. 

Not everybody can tolerate more than 14 hours. When we get to the 16-hour+ fasts, then I feel like a lot of women end up with more cravings, or they end up with their blood sugar not being quite balanced, or their mood isn’t balanced, or they are getting more cortisol reaction. 

The biggest thing is being able to fit all of your calorie needs, protein needs, healthy fat needs all into that short eating window. That can be a huge challenge for women. 100g of protein in a six-hour window is quite difficult. You’re not reaching your veggie needs or calories needs, and that can be an issue.

When I’m working with someone, I’m asking them, “How do you feel? Are you reaching your calorie and macro needs? Is this feeling stressful to you?” We take it from there. 

I guess I don’t have a flat answer for across the board for everybody. I take it individually. 

Dr. Eric: 

We’re on the same page. I’m not against it. I go at least 12 hours. I can’t say I do 18-hour fasts or 24-hour fasts. Usually, like minimum 12-14 hours. That’s pretty routine. Sometimes, I’ll do a 16-8. I can’t say every single day. I try to listen to my body. I’m not going to go 16 hours for the sake of going 16 hours if I’m hungry. 

I agree with you. The concern is getting enough protein during the eating window. Also getting enough nutrients, both macro and micro. I agree that I’ve had some patients extremely incorporate intermittent fasting, doing 20-hour fasts, 4-hour eating windows, or 18-6 regularly. I think that’s too narrow of an eating window. Very difficult in six or sometimes eight hours to get enough protein.

I’ve heard you talk about hydration and hormones on your podcast. Let’s talk about the importance of getting enough water. 

Lucy: 

Hydration is so important. I know how hard it is to get that water in. We need that water for our energy. If we are feeling fatigued or tired in the late morning or the afternoon, that 3pm hour, sometimes it’s not that we didn’t get enough sleep. Sometimes, we are just dehydrated. Instead of refueling with water, we are grabbing candy or something that is less than ideal that doesn’t support our body. 

Also, digestion. We really need that fluid to help keep the bowels moving, to help with detoxing. It’s such an important part of our health. It’s often forgotten about. That water is really key.

Also, ladies. If you’re worried about your skin, hair, and nails, we need water for all of that. Definitely stay hydrated. It can be a bit of a stress on your body if we are always in that dehydrated state. We need it to flush out our excess hormones, support digestion, keep your energy up.

One thing I do that has been working well lately is I have a very tall glass water bottle. I recommend you get what works for you. I love this one. I love the size; I love that it’s glass; I think that it’s pretty. I love my water bottle. I fill it up the night before. That’s really key. When I wake up in the morning, I already feel supported because my water is waiting for me. 

I have a goal of finishing that first 32 ounces by 10am. Set a goal for yourself. If you can figure out a time that works for you. For me, it’s 10am. Have that first one done. It actually gets easier throughout the day because you have at least 32 ounces in in the first part of the day. Now you have the rest of the day to get the rest of the water in. That has been really helping me lately. 

Dr. Eric: 

Another benefit of drinking more water earlier in the day and not doing that after dinner is if you do the 32 ounces after dinner, you might be waking up a few times in the middle of the night to use the restroom. That’s a pretty good strategy. 

Lucy: 

A lot of the women I am working with are saying, “I get to the end of the day, and I realize I haven’t had anything to drink all day. Now I’m guzzling it down.” That’s why if you start the day, even set an alarm, and the alarm will go off and let you know, “You’re supposed to be done with your water. Where are you at?” you can catch up early in the day. That way, it’s not affecting your sleep and disturbing you at night. That’s really important. 

Dr. Eric: 

Great advice. Definitely want to talk about sugar cravings. Anything else from a diet perspective? I know whole, healthy foods; anti-inflammatory foods. Are there any specific foods that you don’t recommend, or you do encourage your patients to eat? 

Lucy: 

I’m basically making sure that our diet is very limited in any kind of sugar, whether it’s refined sugar or artificial sugar. If we have a diet full of sweet things, that will make it very difficult for you to enjoy things like vegetables. It has an effect on our tastebuds. We are pushing out the sweetened things, the ultra-processed things, foods that have a long ingredient list by eating more of the whole foods.

I am watching the type of fats. We keep saying “healthy fats.” To be more specific, I am talking about coconut oil, olive oil, avocado oil, olives, avocadoes, fatty fish. 

If you have ever heard of SMASH fish, I am a big fan. That is Sardines, Mackerel, Anchovies, Salmon, and Herring. People make a face at some of those, but they are actually not that bad. Go try it. Get a can of wild-caught mackerel. It’s pretty good. You will get a lot of healthy omega-3 fats from that. 

We are just making sure that the fats are good and healthy fats. Sugar is limited, and processed foods are limited. We are getting proteins and lots of veggies. That is the formula right there. 

Dr. Eric: 

What are your thoughts about nuts and seeds as a source of fat? 

Lucy: 

I do like nuts and seeds. I should have mentioned those. Those are another great way to get fat. As a snack. I love grabbing a handful of almonds or pecans to hold me over if I need a snack. 

Dr. Eric: 

Talking more about sugar cravings. If you’re working with someone who has really strong sugar cravings, in addition to having them avoid refined sugars for example, do you also limit fruits? How do you navigate fruit? Do you eat lower-sugar fruit or take a break completely for a while? 

Lucy: 

Great question. Lately, I have been running a five-day no sugar challenge for free in my group. During those five days, I do encourage people to skip fruit. There isn’t anything wrong with fruit. I love fruit. I think it’s great. Lots of health benefits from it. The real reason we are taking a five-day break from it is to reset our tastebuds and challenge ourselves to figure out where the sugar cravings are coming from and address those sugar cravings. 

If I have a sugar craving, I could have a banana or strawberries or something sweet and satisfy that sugar craving, then we are not really getting to the root. That’s what we need to do. Are you having sugar cravings because you didn’t have enough at your last meal? 

Often, when women are starting to stay healthy and get on a healthy path, they tend to have a lunch that is maybe a little bit light. A salad with some protein on top. But they didn’t add any healthy carbs to it. They didn’t add enough healthy fats to it. There just wasn’t enough calories in general with that lunch. Now, a couple hours later, they are hungry because their body actually needs more fuel. The body is going to ask for the quickest source of fuel available, and that looks like sugar and sweet things or a bag of chips or something quick. 

We tend to have sugar cravings because our meal wasn’t big enough. That is one area to look at. That might be the root cause of your sugar cravings. 

It might be dehydration. You might just need to drink something. If we are avoiding all sweet things, like during that five-day reset, then we are not able to grab a sweet drink. We are avoiding artificial sugar, natural sugar. We are looking at water or herbal tea.

The other thing that it might be is our emotions. It could be stress. It could be that we are exhausted. It could be that something happened during the day to either cause some excitement or some kind of an emotion that we are going to use that sugar to cover up or as a tool, like a coping mechanism. 

Let’s face it: sugar is comforting. When you have a bite of chocolate cake or a cookie, it does feel good for a few minutes. Then it doesn’t feel good after that. It makes sense that our body would want to grab something sweet to comfort whatever emotion we are having. 

What we really need to do is get to the root of it. Stop and ask yourself, “What does my body really need right now? Does my body need fuel? Maybe I need a snack that has proteins and healthy fats in it.” 

“Does my body need hydration? I need to guzzle some water.” Maybe it needs electrolytes with that water, too, because that can cause sugar cravings if you need electrolytes. 

“Does my body need some support? Maybe I am so stressed out right now I need to call a friend or ask for help. Or I need to journal a few things about what just happened that stressed me out. Maybe I need to make some changes in my life. Something is happening with my job, my coworkers, my family.” There are so many things. Maybe we need to put more boundaries up.

If we don’t address those things, then we are going to keep getting sugar cravings. We can’t just do it by willpower. We can’t just say, “I’m going to get through today and not have any sugar.” That might work for a couple days, but you didn’t resolve anything. It will just come back. We need to get to the root of everything.

When I work with someone, we are not just talking about food. We are not just creating a meal plan. We are figuring the whole thing out. It’s the big picture.

Dr. Eric: 

Makes sense. Definitely check out Lucy’s five-day no sugar challenge. As you mentioned, you have those regularly. As of us recording this, there is a possibility you might not have that in the future, but for now, take advantage of it. Completely free.

How about exercise? What do you recommend from an exercise standpoint for someone who is looking to lose weight? Is it more cardio? Is it more resistance exercise? Is it a combination of the two? 

Lucy: 

Yes. With exercise, it is individual to each person. What I see most often is when women want to get healthy, they want to get on a healthy path. They join a gym. They start running on the treadmill. Maybe they have a treadmill and are putting their time in there. Or they are doing the elliptical. Or they are joining a HIIT class and doing some powerful workouts. Or aerobics classes. There is definitely benefit there to aerobic exercise, of course. 

What is really going to help you even more is strength training. It doesn’t have to take a lot of time. You can do that in 10 minutes. You can do a 10-minute workout, preferably most days of the week, and really see a difference. 

What we want to do is preserve our muscle, especially if you are losing weight. We want the fat to be lost, not our muscle to be lost. We really want to build muscle. We want to be doing things that require us to build muscle. Doing things like cardio, running, jogging, the elliptical machine. Those are not really building muscle. Great for your heart. There is benefit to it.

Sometimes, we go overboard. That is just producing more cortisol and more stress. When we really push ourselves at these hour-long classes that are HIIT or CrossFit workouts, those are pushing us too far, especially if exercise wasn’t your thing throughout your life, and you don’t consider yourself an athlete. You probably need to be doing more strength training exercises or yoga or Pilates. Those types of things are very beneficial as you age and are trying to balance hormones. Those are the types of things that we need to be focusing on. 

Dr. Eric: 

I’m glad you mentioned overdoing it. It’s common. When I was diagnosed with Graves’, prior to that, I was overtraining. You’re right. These classes can be intense. If someone is not ready for them, like you said, if they are an exercise newbie, not accustomed to exercising, you probably don’t want to jump into that. 

Even if someone is well trained, they can be pretty intense. If someone has compromised adrenals or other issues, they might think they can handle it, but their body might not be able to handle that type of intensity. 

Lucy: 

You have to think about your day. “What kind of balance do I have? Do I have the supportive times during the day where I’m really bringing myself into a parasympathetic rest and digest state? Am I pushing myself too often? How do I feel? Am I losing weight?” 

Stubborn weight is a sign. It’s just a message from your body that something isn’t balanced. Are you dealing with stubborn weight? Are you dealing with fatigue, brain fog? Those types of things, I would then question whether you should be continuing with the HIIT workouts. Maybe take a break and do an experiment. Change things up. See what changes happen to your body. 

Dr. Eric: 

Great advice. We covered a lot. Is there anything else that I should have asked you that I didn’t ask you? Anything else that you want to say before we wrap things up? 

Lucy: 

I think one thing I do want to say is the mindset piece of things. We did cover a lot. We talked about sleep and stress and food and movement, all the things. It can feel really overwhelming to hear all the different aspects of all the things you “should” be doing, and maybe the things you shouldn’t be doing. We can get in this overwhelmed state, where we feel like, “If I can’t do all of it, I won’t do any of it.” That’s the all or nothing mentality that comes from diet culture, the pressure from our culture to feel like if you’re not all in, then it’s not worth it. 

I just want to take a minute to remind you that every little tiny step counts. Every little thing that you do is important. It will add up. If you just start concentrating on your water and getting more each day, that’s going to have a ripple effect. It is actually going to count. 

Maybe you want to get a little bit more movement in each day. That will help. Even if you go to bed 10-15 minutes earlier, or turn the screen off a few minutes earlier each night, all these little things do add up. You don’t have to be all in for it to count. You can just do little things as you go, and it will add up. 

Take the all or nothing mentality, and throw it out the window. We don’t need it here. You don’t need to be perfect in order to make progress. That’s what I want everybody to hear today. 

Dr. Eric: 

Well said. This was an amazing conversation. I enjoyed talking with you about hormones and stress management and the impact of food. We covered so many things. 

Where can people find out more about you, Lucy? You have your podcast, social media, your school group with the free weekly performance coffee chats. Talk about that and other places where they can find you. 

Lucy: 

Sure. There are two places where I recommend going to learn more about me and get more information. The podcast is The Healthy Mama Podcast. You can find it on any podcast platform. It’s full of real talk, practical tips from me, a registered dietician and busy mom. I am teaching people how to make it work in a real way. There is three years’ worth of episodes there.

The other place is the school community called Radiance After 40. 

I am on social media. If you want to find me on Instagram or Facebook, that’s @LucyHutchingsRD. 

However, I am pulling away from social media and bringing my audience with me to the school platform. I think it’s really great. It’s not full of advertisements and the intensity of social media. It’s a little bit of a break. That’s really nice. 

It’s a free group called Radiance After 40. In that group, for free, we meet weekly for a virtual coffee chat, where we just talk about everything, whether it’s perimenopause and menopause, hormones, inflammation, life in general. We talk about it all in there. It’s pretty fun. 

Usually, I am running a monthly five-day no sugar challenge that is free in that group. If you’re interested in those challenges, definitely join that group. 

Dr. Eric: 

Thank you so much for having this conversation. I learned some things, and I’m sure my listeners did as well. 

Lucy: 

Awesome. Thanks so much for having me. It was really a pleasure. I loved it. 

Recently, I interviewed Jordan,  who was recently diagnosed with Graves’ disease. In this episode she opens up about managing symptoms like heart palpitations, bloating, and fatigue while following the AIP diet and taking calming herbs, iodine, and other targeted supplements. If you would prefer to listen to the interview you can access it by Clicking Here.

Dr. Eric Osansky: 

Welcome to another Save My Thyroid health audit. I am chatting here with Jordan, who was diagnosed with Graves’. Thank you so much for joining us, Jordan. 

Jordan: 

Absolutely. Thank you for having me. 

Dr. Eric: 

Really looking forward to this conversation. You were diagnosed with Graves’ not too long ago. You put two weeks when you filled out the application for this audit. That was a few weeks ago, so I guess it’s been a little over a month since you were diagnosed now? 

Jordan: 

Yes. 

Dr. Eric: 

Any family history that you know of with Graves’ or any other thyroid or autoimmune thyroid conditions? 

Jordan: 

Yes. My mom was diagnosed with Graves’. My grandmother on her side had hypothyroidism, but I’m not sure if it was related to Hashimoto’s. There are definitely thyroid issues in my family. 

Dr. Eric: 

Just out of curiosity, how did you learn about me? 

Jordan: 

When I was first diagnosed, I knew right away that I wanted to do my best to reverse this naturally. I didn’t want to go on medication. My husband is a big podcast listener. We both went right at it, trying to research different methods to heal myself naturally. He actually came across your podcast, and we listened to it together, which started my journey. 

Dr. Eric: 

You said you read my book. You must have gone through them pretty quickly since you were just diagnosed. Did you listen to the audio versions? 

Jordan: 

I read them. I get pretty focused when I’m researching. I spent day in, day out researching how to heal. I read all the books I could as fast as I could to start right away. 

Dr. Eric: 

Wonderful. What you put down here on the application is you were actually being treated for a concussion. Then you were tested for TSH during a routine visit. You asked for the test because it wasn’t tested for over a year. The primary care doctor found it was low. You saw an endocrinologist, who did the diagnosis for Graves’. You started working with a naturopath, taking some supplements. Are you still following AIP? 

Jordan: 

I am. This will be my sixth week, I believe. 

Dr. Eric: 

As far as some of your challenges here, exercise due to heart symptoms. I don’t know if you’re still having bloating and stomachaches with AIP. You listed that as well as the supplements you’re taking. Are you still experiencing those same symptoms with AIP? 

Jordan: 

Yes, I am. I feel like it’s improved. I’ve gotten used to it. I still get stomachaches after my meals. My heart-related issues are the same. I am still getting palpitations pretty frequently. Getting heart rate spikes when exercising. They have improved since I started with AIP and some supplements, but they’re still there. 

Dr. Eric: 

Were you experiencing any digestive symptoms prior to following AIP? 

Jordan: 

I was. I have pretty much my entire life been living with bloating and stomachaches after every meal. I have eaten a very whole, organic diet before I was diagnosed. Didn’t really matter what I was eating. I was always bloated. 

Dr. Eric: 

Okay. Did the naturopath you are working with do any gut-related testing? 

Jordan: 

No. I had asked about that. He mentioned he doesn’t do any testing. He did an intake meeting, where we went through my symptoms and the timeline. He was pretty confident I have SIBO. He says he doesn’t recommend or do any testing himself. He is confident in it, and he is treating me for that. 

Dr. Eric: 

Okay. You are taking an herbal approach? 

Jordan: 

Yes, I believe it’s an antifungal. I have a pretty long list of herbs I am taking for it. 

Dr. Eric: 

Just for the SIBO itself? 

Jordan: 

For the SIBO itself and other digestive aids. 

Dr. Eric: 

It sounds like it very well might be SIBO. The treatment typically is either an herbal antimicrobial, or there is antibiotics. It’s called Rifaximin. There is also the Elemental Diet, which is the liquid diet that most people don’t want to follow unless it is really bad. The herbs usually work well. 

Have you noticed any positive changes? It sounds like it’s not as bad since you said you started AIP. I’m wondering if you think that’s at least in part due to taking the supplements. 

Jordan: 

I think it’s definitely been improving since my switch. I was eating a lot of grains prior and some gluten and dairy here and there. I do think it’s improved, but I can’t tell if it’s from AIP or the supplements that he is giving me. 

Dr. Eric: 

Okay. I try to be conservative with testing. In this case, usually I like to try to see if it’s SIBO or if there is something else going on. Since you already started on the protocol, it makes sense to follow it. If it is SIBO, that is a challenge. Most of the time, the herbs work. Sometimes, they don’t. If it doesn’t work, it would just be interesting to see what direction he goes in. Let’s hope it does knock out the symptoms. 

If it knocks out the symptoms, then the thing with SIBO is sometimes it could come back. You might not have spoken about this yet, but there are prokinetics that some people need to take to help maintain the gut motility even after getting rid of SIBO. 

The only way you know if you need those is to either go on them, and then eventually stop taking them, or some people don’t go on them at all and see if it comes back. 

The first step is obviously seeing if the supplements help with the digestive symptoms, which seem to be related to SIBO. You will see how that goes.

The AIP diet, it’s not common for someone to have those symptoms. If someone has another condition, like if they have SIBO or a histamine intolerance, then some of those foods are high in histamine that are AIP-friendly. Some of the foods that are friendly are higher in FODMAPs and could also aggravate SIBO if someone is dealing with it. 

The AIP diet usually won’t cause those symptoms, but it does sound like based on what you mentioned that eating those foods, if they cause those symptoms, which they did, a good chance it would be SIBO. Hopefully, those digestive symptoms subside, not only just improve, but completely go away. 

You said he doesn’t do any testing? Or just in this case, he doesn’t do any testing. 

Jordan: 

He doesn’t do testing with any of his patients. 

Dr. Eric: 

Okay. Everybody is different. I’ve had people on the podcast like that. I have had people on the podcast where they do the complete opposite. They go crazy with testing and recommend 5-6 different tests, which gets expensive. I usually try to go in between. Start out conservatively, and hopefully we don’t need to get aggressive with people I work. Sometimes, we do. It all depends on the health history.

The next question I have for you is are you taking anything to lower the thyroid hormones, whether it’s antithyroid mediation or herbs such as bugleweed? 

Jordan: 

Yes. I have a thyroid calming supplement, which is a mix of motherwort, lemon balm, and bugleweed. He has me on an additional dosage of bugleweed as well. I do feel like those are helping. 

Dr. Eric: 

Do you have a scheduled thyroid panel as well to see what changes are taking place? 

Jordan: 

I do have it. The order is in. I am unsure when to test, especially since I just had influenza, and I feel that all of my symptoms came back as they were on day one. I’m unsure when to test. 

Dr. Eric: 

If someone is sick, usually I recommend waiting at least a week after you’re feeling better, to do the testing. In a bad case of influenza, you might want to wait a little bit longer because that could throw off the numbers. Sorry you dealt with that.

When I dealt with Graves’, I took bugleweed like you did. You are also taking the thyroid calming formula. Is that by Herb Pharm? 

Jordan: 

It’s a tincture. 

Dr. Eric: 

Is the company Herb Pharm? Do you know the company name? They have one called Thyroid Calming Formula. 

Jordan: 

It’s called ThyroCalm. 

Dr. Eric: 

Maybe it’s something different. 

Jordan: 

It’s called David Winston’s Thyroid Calmpound. 

Dr. Eric: 

I haven’t heard of that. That’s the one that has all three? Then you are taking bugleweed separately. 

Jordan: 

Yes. 

Dr. Eric: 

It sounds like it’s working. When I dealt with Graves’, I took bugleweed by itself, and I felt my symptoms, my heart rate was lowering, palpitations were improved. I still experienced some palpitations, so I added motherwort. 

It sounds like you’re also noticing a difference when it comes to the symptoms. The only way to know for sure if it’s working is to do a blood test eventually. If you’re feeling the symptoms like I did, then it sounds like it’s helping, which is good. Some people need to take antithyroid medication, but when you can avoid it, that’s a good thing. Hopefully, you can continue to avoid it and have your symptoms managed by the herbs.

As far as exercise, with my patients, I usually recommend to take it easy, at least on the cardiovascular exercise. Try to do some light walking. Usually, I recommend resistance or weight bearing exercise because it’s common to lose muscle mass and bone density. You also want to listen to your body.  Do you know what on average your resting heart rate is? 

Jordan: 

My resting is about 83, so it’s not too high resting. It’s the spikes. If I start stretching, it can go up to 170. Even just doing yoga, it could go to 190. I’ve gotten the full cardiology signoff that everything looked fine in terms of my heart health and structure. It gets very high very fast with little exertion. 

Dr. Eric: 

That is a pretty high spike. The resting heart rate is not too bad. It’s a little bit high. I’d be more nervous about it going up to 170 or 190. You said that is not just exercise. If you’re walking or cleaning the house, does it get up that high? 

Jordan: 

It does. It depends on the day. Some days, I feel great, and it’s more managed. The next day, I might just be going up the stairs, and it goes up to 170, 180. I’m pretty active, and I was prior. It’s a huge change for me. It’s hard to limit those activities. 

Dr. Eric: 

Was that the case even before you dealt with influenza? 

Jordan: 

Yes. I had three days before I had influenza where I had no palpitations, no spikes, and I felt great. Then I had influenza. They all came back. About every two minutes, I am having a palpitation. Getting up from the chair, I can feel my heart rate raise pretty quickly. That was similar to when I first was diagnosed. 

Dr. Eric:

It sounds like things were heading in the right direction until you got the influenza. Then it went back to where it was. 

Jordan: 

Yes. 

Dr. Eric: 

Would you say you were 80%, 90% feeling better from influenza? Or not even that much better? 

Jordan: 

I would say I’m about 70% better. The fatigue is still there. I still have a cough. I haven’t had fever or body aches in a while. I can tell I’m on the up and up. 

Dr. Eric: 

That’s good. It sounds like that definitely set you back. As much as you might want to exercise, and I have been there, too, I am not going to say not to exercise, but listen to your body. Maybe for now, limit it to light exercise, light walking, light resistance exercise. 70% is better than 30%, but you might have at least a week or two, possibly longer, until you are feeling better as far as the influenza goes. 

Once you get to that point, wait another week, and then do a blood test. If it seems like 2-3 weeks go by, and you are still dragging along, and you are not feeling 100% yet, at that point, you might want to do it anyway. I wouldn’t wait 3-4 months to do a thyroid panel. When was the last test you had done?  

Jordan: 

That was in December. 

Dr. Eric: 

It’s been about two months or so, depending on when in December you had it. 

Jordan: 

Yes. 

Dr. Eric: 

I would say to give it another few weeks. If you’re feeling at that point where you are feeling 100% or almost there, wait an extra week. If you’re still not feeling where you feel you need to be, you might want to do it anyway and see what the numbers are. Sometimes, with these viruses and other things, it can take a while. 

I don’t know if I would wait four months to get a test. Hopefully, you don’t need to worry about it. In a week or two, you will make huge strides and feel significantly better with that. 

As far as taking the right supplements because that was another thing you put down. I give some general recommendations. I give a probiotic; an omega-3 fatty acid, usually in the form of a fish oil; the bugleweed or motherwort or lemon balm, things like that based on the symptoms and the thyroid panel.

As far as other supplements, a lot of it does depend on the testing. For SIBO, it sounds like he recommended a lot of things. Usually for SIBO itself, I might recommend 3-4 things to help with getting rid of it. Maybe he has recommended other things to help with supporting the gut and gut repair, things like digestive enzymes, which I would understand. Are you taking any other supplements that are not related to SIBO? 

Jordan: 

Yes. I’m taking seeds or vitamins. Acetyl L-carnitine. He has me taking two a day. An activated B. My Vitamin D was very low on the last test, so he has me taking a 10,000 IU Vitamin D supplement each day. I have a K2 probiotic, glucose balance. 

He is actually having me do pulsed iodine once a week. I know it’s opposite of what I would expect, just in researching and reading, but he has me taking two drops of iodine once a week to help with my thyroid to be able to regulate the iodine function. 

Dr. Eric: 

Okay. You know how much iodine two drops is? 

Jordan: 

Yes, I can check. I have it right here. It is the J. Crow Lugal’s Solution, 2%. 

Dr. Eric:

Lugal’s Solution? 

Jordan: 

J. Crow Lugal’s Solution, 2%. It says 4% potassium iodide and 2% iodine. I have two drops. 

Dr. Eric: 

Okay. As far as making the conversion, I know tablet-wise, lugal tablet is 12.5mg. I forget how many drops they give that is equivalent to that. You’re probably still taking mg. 

It’s controversial for sure. Some will recommend to completely avoid iodine with hyperthyroidism; others will recommend taking it. In some cases, iodine can lower thyroid hormone levels. 

When I dealt with Graves’, this was over 15 years ago now, I was taught that you want to test for iodine and supplement for iodine if you’re deficient in iodine. I was more on the iodine bandwagon. Now, I’m not anti-iodine. I do recommend getting iodine from food if someone has a multivitamin. I’m not concerned about that. I’m more cautious about people supplementing separately with iodine. Depends on the situation. Are you taking any selenium along with that? 

Jordan: 

He has me taking three Brazil nuts a day. It goes against AIP, so I’m cheating a bit with that. He would rather have me take Brazil nuts than supplement with selenium, and I asked. 

Dr. Eric: 

I have a podcast episode that I chat about that. I like Brazil nuts. I eat Brazil nuts. On a wellness basis, it’s a good idea to try to rely as much as you can on food. The only downside is you have no idea how much selenium is in each Brazil nut. You could be getting a good amount, or you might be getting a lower amount, depending on how much selenium is in each Brazil nut. I usually recommend selenium supplementation while someone is healing, so we know how much is in there. I’m not saying you should do that. 

What you’re taking sounds good. B complex. I usually like to see what someone’s adrenals look like before recommending a B complex. B vitamin is water soluble, so it won’t hurt necessarily to take it. 

The L-carnitine, you are taking acetyl L-carnitine, which I don’t know if he recommended for the thyroid or other purposes. 

Vitamin D, I can understand. It sounds like the K as well, the K2, to help guide the calcium into the bone. That makes sense. 

The iodine, not everybody would agree with. I can’t say I currently take that approach. In the past, I would give separate supplementation. I also based it on urinary testing. 

It’s all about progress. As long as you are progressing, that is what we want to see obviously. If your thyroid numbers improve, if you feel better, if your antibodies are heading in the right direction, that’s all great. 

If not, then that’s where more detective work needs to be done to see if the SIBO has been eradicated. In his case, he will go more by symptoms than testing since he didn’t do the testing. He will have his own approach. 

Does he do applied kinesiology, like muscle testing? 

Jordan: 

Not that he’s mentioned. 

Dr. Eric: 

He’s really going by symptoms and the blood test. He does pay attention to the blood test but not any muscle testing or functional medicine testing. 

Jordan: 

Correct. 

Dr. Eric: 

Okay. Every practitioner is different. You’re under his care. Just see how you’re improving. It’s not the approach I take, but just because I don’t take that approach, this doesn’t mean my approach is right and his is wrong. If you get really good results, that is what you’re hoping for, and that would be a good thing. If you get great results, you also did so without spending money on testing. Can’t complain about that. 

I guess as far as the next step, you’re working with someone. I would continue following their recommendations for SIBO protocol. It sounds like what you’re doing with the herbs to manage symptoms is helping, but the only way to know is by doing another blood test in the future. I wouldn’t wait too long before doing that. A little bit of a catch-22 because you are getting over the influenza. 

AIP diet, six weeks. It sounds like you’re doing a great job. 

The one thing I will say about AIP and SIBO, everybody is different with their approach diet-wise. As you probably know, you read my books and listened to my podcast. I like AIP. Usually, if someone is healing from SIBO, a lot of times I will follow that low FODMAP diet, which I talk about in one of my books. 

I also mention that I usually don’t combine diets. I don’t have someone do AIP and low FODMAP because it’s more difficult. If someone is following SIBO, we might prioritize low FODMAP while they are healing. Then make the switch to AIP. 

Again, as long as you’re not struggling too much with the diet, as long as you are not finding it too restrictive, and it sounds like you’re maybe not completely avoiding high FODMAP foods, you are just dealing with bloating and gas, it sounds like it’s helping the SIBO protocol. 

That is the approach I would sometimes take. Maybe have someone not do AIP right away if they are dealing with SIBO and follow low FODMAP instead. Then incorporate AIP later on.

If you are familiar with the 5R protocol, the very first R is Remove. That’s what you’re focusing on right now. Not to say you can’t focus on Replace, Reinoculate, Repair, Rebalance now. In the case of SIBO, sometimes you want to do that exclusively before incorporating some of the other components of the 5R protocol. 

Before we wrap up, any last questions you have, Jordan? 

Jordan: 

No, I really appreciate your time, thank you. 

Dr. Eric: 

You’re welcome. Overall, it sounds like you’re doing a really good job. Keep up the good work. Hope you get some good results.

Thank you so much for listening to my podcast, reading my books, and agreeing to do this audit. 

Jordan: 

Absolutely, thank you. 

Dr. Eric: 

 

Take care.