Recently, I interviewed Tricia Nelson, who’s an Emotional Eating Expert and we discussed why people use food for emotional reasons, Tricia’s struggles with weight and emotional eating, the need to address underlying emotional issues, her strategies for making sustainable life changes, practical tips for managing emotional eating, and more. If you would prefer to listen to the interview you can access it by Clicking Here.
Dr. Eric Osansky:
I am super excited to chat with Tricia Nelson. We are going to be talking about causes and consequences of emotional eating. Let’s go ahead and dive into her impressive bio.
Tricia Nelson lost 50 pounds by identifying and healing the underlying causes of her emotional eating. Tricia is an emotional eating expert and TEDx speaker whose talk has garnered over two million views on YouTube. She is the author of the #1 bestselling book Heal Your Hunger: Seven Simple Steps to End Emotional Eating Now. Tricia is the host of the popular podcast The Heal Your Hunger Show. She has spent over 30 years researching the hidden causes of the addictive personality. Tricia has been featured on NBC, CBS, KTLA, FOX, and Discovery Health. Welcome, Tricia.
Tricia Nelson:
Thanks for having me. It’s great to be here.
Dr. Eric:
It’s great to have this conversation. Really looking forward to it. Let’s talk a little bit about your background. Seems like whenever I am interviewing someone, we all have our own journeys and experiences which lead us to helping people in whatever niche we are serving. How did you start helping people with emotional eating?
Tricia:
It absolutely came from my personal experience. I was 50 pounds overweight by age 21. I think I had a real addiction to food, obviously earlier than that. At around age four or five, I was really excited about food. I like to cook. I like to eat. I like to go out to restaurants. My whole early years were spent being pretty obsessed with food.
In adolescence, when I started to gain weight, I was pretty obsessed with my weight as well. I hated being fat. I had this roll on my tummy that I would scrunch up in my hands and imagine cutting off, like you cut fat off the side of a steak. It’s just fat after all. Thankfully, I didn’t try that.
I had crazy thoughts, like, oh, maybe, I’ll get some disease where I’ll automatically lose weight without trying, or perhaps I should join the army, where they will force me to exercise at boot camp because I hated exercise. Some pretty crazy, out-there thoughts, which were really indicative of how out of control I felt.
I just did not feel in control of food. I felt very obsessed with sugar and carbs specifically. I loved sugar and processed carbs. Once I started, I could not stop.
It was a real rollercoaster ride for me because I did diet. I could be good for a couple weeks. I call it “new diet syndrome.” Then I would fall off. I couldn’t keep doing it after new diet syndrome wore off, and I wasn’t excited anymore. I’d start, and two weeks later, I’d be crawling the walls, like, “I need chocolate.” It was really painful for me how obsessed I was, how out of control I felt.
Also, I had a lot of shame around my body. I was really embarrassed about my weight. I look back at pictures, and sometimes, I am like, “What was I even thinking?” I wasn’t even overweight at times. But I had what I called “fat head.” In my head, all I could see was fat. The technical term is “body dysmorphia.” I couldn’t see myself clearly. I always felt like I was fat. I always felt like I had weight to lose, and I struggled.
What happened for me is that my sister came home one day, and she said, “I’m an emotional eater.” This was way back when, when that was a new term. I thought to myself, “Well, that’s really stupid. I just like to eat.” That is what I was convinced of.
Then you can’t unhear it. I started to observe my patterns around food. I was horrified. I think I’m an emotional eater. I would go out to lunch with friends, let’s say. I grew up in the Northeast up in the Boston area. They had a store like Denny’s, but it was more of an ice cream-oriented place called Friendly’s. I would go there with my friends, and they would order a sandwich, which came with fries. They would eat their sandwich and pick at their fries. I would think, why would somebody do that? I was eating my fries and picking at my sandwich. I felt like an alien. How do they do that?
Or they’d have a hot fudge sundae, which totally dating myself here, you know those skinny tall glass jars with a hot fudge sundae? You can see the fudge sauce and ice cream, and there is this long metal spoon. They would get halfway through and push it aside, and they’d be like, “Ugh, I’m full.” I’d look at them and be like, “Full? What does that have to do with it? There is hot fudge in that container. Let me at it.”
I realized that I was not like other people. My relationship with food was a lot more involved and emotional because I felt like I had to have it. I had to have my goodies, or my idea of a good time was getting my binge foods at the end of a long week, sitting in front of my favorite TV show, and just eating. I would never imagine that I would eat as much as I would. I would definitely lose control. I am just going to have a bowl of ice cream, but I’d take the lid off, and the lid would never go back on. I’d eat the whole pint.
That’s how it went for me. Of course, it was hard to lose weight under those circumstances. Even if I did lose weight for a time, I’d always put it back on. It was very demoralizing.
It wasn’t until I met somebody who helped me pivot from the diet mentality and start to really look at my relationship with food. More importantly, look at my emotions. I was using food for emotional reasons. When I started to look at my emotions, start having new ways of addressing my emotions, being super aware of what was going on, then I could disconnect food from my emotional self. I could deal with my stress. I could become more balanced. In so many ways, so much happier.
That was in my 20s. From that point on, I started working to help other people heal. Heal Your Hunger, my company, came about eight years ago when I wanted to take what I did online. I wrote my book. I started my podcast. I’m so blessed to be able to help women heal their relationship with food without dieting. They can stop focusing on the food and weight and lose weight as a by-product of dealing with their stress, their relationship with food, and coming to love themselves.
Dr. Eric:
That is awesome. You said this happened at a really young age. Into your 20s is when you started turning things around. Is it safe to say it was a 20-year journey before you started turning things around and helping others?
Tricia:
I had been struggling for about seven years, and I was blessed to get help when I was 21. I am 57 now. It was actually 36 years or so later that I sit here talking to you.
I’d say I turned things around within three or four years of working with my mentor. My goal when I started Heal Your Hunger was to codify what he did. There was no internet then. There was no program. He had been morbidly obese, so he was sharing his experiences with me. What I did was codified everything I learned from him. I put it in my book. I quote him all the time.
I laid out a step-by-step process for people who struggle with emotional eating to finally heal. It’s very practical, and it’s very clear-cut because there is so much gray when you’re dealing with weight loss. “Oh, you should do mindful eating.” “Oh, you should do intuitive eating.” “Use moderation.” All those concepts, if you have been struggling with food and weight for a long period of time, don’t work.
I was mindful that I was eating, but I was mindful that I was eating popcorn and candy bars. I would intuit that I should eat way more than I should because my signals were off. Conventional wisdom, even beautiful wisdom that is good for a lot of people on paper, didn’t work for me because I was more in the food addicted side of things. I have a quiz where people can find out if they are an emotional eater or a food addict.
Once you have been struggling for a period of time, it does become more of an emotional eating issue. It’s really important that we don’t just apply regular conventional wisdom to it because it may not work.
Dr. Eric:
That makes sense. Can it be challenging, at least initially, to differentiate emotional hunger versus physiological hunger? Can you maybe differentiate the two?
Tricia:
It is hard. To tell you the truth, even to this day sometimes, I get confused. I can feel like I’m hungry, but if I do some sleuthing around it, I’m really not physically hungry. Emotional hunger can definitely mask itself as physical hunger. It’s really important to be able to spot the clues.
One of the things that has helped me the most with that is to get on a regular eating schedule that is not erratic and crazy. Those of us who struggle with food and weight, we have been on so many diets. We have done so many crazy hacks. We have been erratically eating, or we have been snacking all through the day, or not eating anything during the day and binging at night. We are all over the place.
For that reason, you don’t know when it’s physical or emotional. What’s really helped me, and what I teach my clients, is something I call three meal magic, which is three meals with nothing in between. This is so good because it’s basically a surefire way to feed yourself on a regular schedule. You’re putting 4-5 hours between each meal. You’re eating breakfast lunch and dinner.
Even if you want to do intermittent fasting, if you stick to 12-13 hours between dinner and breakfast, I find that to be the most stabilizing. When you’re going 16 hours, it’s hard, and it’s easy to binge once you open up your window.
We have done so many crazy hacks with our food and weight that it’s really nice to come back to a stabilizing, super grounding, calm way of eating. I always tell people to think about how you would feed your kid. Your sweet baby daughter, would you say, “Girlfriend, hold off on eating as long as possible because you will shave off a few pounds”? We’re not going to say that to a little sweet girl. She has no issues with food. When we start saying that, it’s throwing her off. it’s making her feel bad if she wants to eat, if she has real hunger.
I find that the three meals is like getting back to basics. Three meals with nothing in between. The snacky foods are the ones that really make us gain weight. The chips, chocolate, a bowl of pasta, a piece of buttered bread. Those calories add up. If you cut out the snacky foods, you’re just feeling really solid, and you’re also feeling sated.
That is when, with quite a lot of accuracy, I can have a conversation with myself and suss it out. “Huh, you think you’re going to die if you don’t eat right now. Is that really true? You had a healthy breakfast. You had good proteins, good fats, maybe some slow metabolizing carbs. 11:00, you’re not starving. You might be getting hungry for lunch, but you’re not starving.” You can change that insistence, that urgency, that when it’s emotional, we feel. I can have that conversation with myself, and it’s not a bad conversation to have.
We don’t always want to believe our minds when we ‘re telling ourselves a story, like, “No, I have to eat,” or “Just one piece of chocolate.” I have never had one piece of chocolate in my life. I want a bar. We have to have that conversation with ourselves.
If I’m feeding myself on a regular basis, if I learn to care for myself, have good foods in the refrigerator, make an actual meal of real food, it’s easier for me to suss it out.
What’ s really going on? It’s a great question to ask. You’re not really hungry for food. What are you hungry for? You can start seeing that maybe you’re just needing a hug. You might be needing a glass of water. Or perhaps you’re actually afraid of something. You’re craving an escape from something oftentimes. If I am afraid to make a phone call, like there is some hard conversation I need to have, all of a sudden, I think I’m hungry. I want to avoid it.
That’s what emotional eating is. We’re using food for emotional reasons. We’re using food to feel better or food as a distraction, and that never pays off. It’s hard to stop once you start eating for non-physical reasons.
Dr. Eric:
I was going to ask you about the intermittent fasting, so it sounds like if someone, especially if they are having an issue with emotional eating, probably doesn’t want to do a 16-8 fast. Stick with three meals per day. 12-13 hours fasting is fine, but you don’t want to go beyond that.
I can imagine that it can be challenging avoiding snacks if someone has children, and there is snacks all over the place. I assume you also have to teach them to keep them out of sight or just have some type of strategy. That has to be difficult as well. Again, a lot of that emotional part.
If they see the snacks all the time, do you have any tips for women who have children, and they have snacks that they give their kids, and they don’t want to eat those snacks in between meals?
Tricia:
It is important that we uplevel our kids’ snacks. At holiday time, Whole Foods has a different version of Halloween candy than the regular supermarkets do. We can uplevel our snack foods that are in the house.
Out of sight, out of mind does help. if somebody has a spouse or kids who love junk food, I find having a cabinet where it lives, it’s their cabinet, but at least you’re not staring at it. It’s just harder if you’re staring at a bag of Doritos when you come home from work, and you’re stressed out. Putting that behind closed doors is a good idea.
On the topic of stress, it’s also really important that we have a way to deal with stress at the end of the day. Most emotional eaters do most of their emotional eating after about 4pm, so end of day into the evening, or even at night.
In my experience, that’s for a few reasons. One reason is that is after an accumulation of stress throughout the day. Overeaters are typically overdoers, so we’re getting a lot done. We’re on the move. We’re crossing things off our list. It’s very satisfying. We get a dopamine hit from that. If we’re not taking time to eat proper meals, really important to feed ourselves in a healthy way and make sure we eat.
The other thing that’s really important is that when we’re on the move, we’re not typically addressing how we’re feeling about things. We’re just moving, moving, moving. At the end of the day, those things we didn’t deal with start to percolate. They’re coming to the surface. “I can’t believe such and such happened.” “I can’t believe I got that letter.” “Whoa, that conversation didn’t go well. I feel bad about how I reacted.” All the troubles from the day that we were moving too fast to address come to the surface.
Even the worries start to come to the surface. When everybody is in bed, and we’re sitting in the kitchen, fretting, we eat. We eat to quell our fears.
It’s really important for people to have a way to address those emotions, to process stress, and also not to do as much. We are overdoers. It does get us into trouble as you know. They’re depleted. They’re not getting enough sleep. Their hormones are imbalanced. That leads to overeating all the time. We eat to feel better. When our energy is low, or we are not getting enough rest, plus we have that racing mind, overeaters are also overthinkers. We are tearing stuff apart. All these things lead to overeating.
It’s really important that we have a way to throw off that stress and maybe even, god forbid, make changes in our schedule, so we’re not overdoing, not saying yes to everybody. We have boundaries on our time. The superwoman syndrome, it runs deep for emotional eaters. We get so much of our validation from people saying, “You’re amazing.” “Give it to Tricia; she’ll do the extra project. She’s amazing.” I love to hear that.
Meanwhile, I’m resentful because everybody is giving me their work. Nobody is doing their part. It’s the perfect storm to binge: to be overworked, underpaid, stressed out, tired, and resentful.
When we people please, nobody is ever as pleased as we think they’re going to be. We take on this extra work, thinking about all the praise we’re going to get. People barely notice. They get used to it. “Give it to her; she’ll do it.” We’re even more resentful and feeling like it didn’t pay off, so we reward ourselves with the “I deserve it” binge.
Dr. Eric:
Stress is huge for a lot of different conditions. It makes sense with emotional eating as well. You want to try your best to reduce the stressors. A lot of times, it comes down to increasing your stress management and handling skills.
You mentioned sleep is important when it comes to emotional eating. If you don’t get enough sleep, that will affect your adrenals as well. You educate your clients, I’m sure.
Tricia:
We don’t address the sleep as much as we address the overdoing and overcommitting. That is really the cause. If somebody doesn’t start looking at how they’re living, it’s going to be hard to address how they’re eating and how they’re sleeping. It’s hard to sleep when you’re stressed out. It’s hard not to be stressed out when you’re doing too much and trying to please everybody.
I really do love to say it’s a living problem, not an eating problem. That’s what we’re missing a lot of times. We always ask, “Doc, tell me what to eat,” not “Tell me how to make changes in how I live, Doc.” We don’t have that conversation. It’s so vital.
In my book, I talk about the anatomy of the emotional eater. These are 24 personality traits that make up the emotional eater’s personality. These traits have nothing to do with food. They’re people pleasing, speaking up for ourselves, having a racing mind, caretaking. We love to find a project. We love to find somebody who needs our help and then knock ourselves out trying to help them, doing for them what they could be doing for themselves. It feeds us in some way to be needed and important. This is what leads to overeating, when we’re overcommitted and overgiving. These are some of the living things that need to change. Otherwise, nothing will change.
Dr. Eric:
You mentioned when you were dealing with problems with emotional eating, sugar and carbs were two of the biggies. I know that’s the case with a lot of people. I also work with a lot of people who have sugar cravings. Even in that situation, it still ties into those 24 personality traits.
Tricia:
Well, here’s the deal. We’re not binging on salads. We’re binging on the foods that give us the hit. Feeding the reward centers in our brain. They’re also the foods that put a blanket on our emotions. We’re numbing with food. We’re using food to numb our feelings. When I say emotional eating, I talk about numbing our emotions.
I like to give people what I call the PEP formula. PEP is an acronym, which helps explain what those emotions are. There is lots of emotions out there. We can’t chase each one down, trying to fix it. To understand what the umbrella ones are and how food is being used specifically for a coating of those emotions, for escaping those emotions, is really important.
The PEP formula is we know what food does to us, but it’s an explanation for what food is doing for us. The first P stands for Painkiller. We’re literally using food to anesthetize pain. Kill my pain, so I don’t feel so much. It works. It’s the sugar and carbs. That’s what we’re going to because it’s heavy, it’s high calorie, it certainly gives us a serotonin and dopamine hit. It works. We don’t feel bad once we start eating chips and chocolate. We’ll feel bad later, but not immediately. It will coat our emotions first. It will kill our pain.
When I say “pain,” it could be anything uncomfortable. It could be getting some bad news. We just go right to the refrigerator. It could be having a bad day at work. It could be a relationship struggle. Any of these things cause painful emotions. We use food to cover up that pain, to bury that pain.
The E in PEP stands for Escape. Sugar and carbs are a great escape. We get our sugar and carbs. We sit in front of the TV. I don’t want to think about anything. One of the reasons is because we’re scaring ourselves half to death most of the time. I call it “awfulizing.” We get on that track of thinking about worst case scenarios. What if that happens? What if this happens? What if I’m a bag lady and homeless? What if my relationship doesn’t work out? We are always thinking about worst case scenarios, and we scare ourselves half to death. Then we want to escape our own brains. Hanging out with our brains is exhausting.
When we’re eating, we’re in escape mode. For moments, we’re feeling fine. That’s another reason why food really serves us, especially sugar and carbs.
The last P stands for Punishment, which seems a little counterintuitive. We use food as a reward, right? We’re eating to reward ourselves. But if you think about it on the back end, when we feel terrible, when we’re full, when we feel like we’ve eaten too much, “Why did I do that?” that’s hardly a reward. We do it time and time again. We stuff ourselves time and time again and feel sick. It begs the question: Why would I do that?
My experience is as overeaters, we’re also overfeelers. We feel guilty very easily. We are beating the crap out of ourselves all the time. Food is a good way to do it. First, we’re trying to escape those feelings. Then we end up beating up our bodies, feeling sick. It’s self-inflicted. My experience is there is a built-in punishment in the way that we eat, especially when we have health issues. Our doctor has said, “Stay away from sugar and processed foods.” That’s the very thing we go to. Sure enough, we feel like crap in no time.
Dr. Eric:
All right, I like that. For those who are listening to this and are thinking, “You know what? I think I might have an emotional eating problem,” what would be next steps you recommend for them to take? Listening to your podcast and reading your book are some good steps. Anything else?
Tricia:
I would recommend starting with the quiz on my website. You can find my book, TEDx talk, and podcast there, too. HealYourHunger.com. When you take this quiz, it’s free and takes three minutes. You will find out if you’re an emotional eater or a food addict or somewhere in between. It’s really good information.
Based on your personalized score, you will be taken through a journey, a video you can watch, and some next steps. It’s based on taking the quiz. I highly recommend taking that quiz.
When I say where are you on the spectrum, I am talking about the emotional eating spectrum. Emotional eating is something we all can do. Everybody is on the spectrum. We can all lose control now and then. “Screw it, eat the whole bag.”
For those who take it way too far, for those who are really suffering with this, and it’s been a decades-long struggle, you’re going to be in the higher end of that. That is when you enter the addiction phase, where it is seriously compromising your health. You’re doing it in spite of doctors’ warnings. You know better.
You may even be a health coach or doctor. You’re thinking, “Oh my god, I’m such a fraud because I know better. I am teaching people how to eat, yet I am not following my own advice.”
I often say to people, “Where you are on that spectrum is qualified by the level of control you have.” Can you scale back? Can you stop yourself from eating sugar? Or once you start eating, you keep going. You can’t course-correct. Someone who can’t course-correct doesn’t have much control.
The other thing that qualifies you is the level of consequences. Have you been eating this way for a few decades? Is it catching up to you? Are you prediabetic now? Have you ruined your gut microbiome because of the crappy foods that you’re eating? We have to take a look at that. That is a chronic thing, like the chronic habit that we’ve had for a long time. There are steps we need to take based on that.
When you take that quiz, that is where you will find out where you are in that spectrum.
Dr. Eric:
I’m glad you mentioned the consequences. It’s not just about weight gain. You mentioned diabetes or how it could disrupt the gut microbiome. These are important.
I will say I don’t think I’m an emotional eater. I took your quiz anyway. Her quiz is comprehensive, but it is easy. What I mean by that, and it’s not just a four- or five-question quiz. It’s a good amount of questions, but it’s pretty easy yes/no questions. I highly recommend taking Tricia’s quiz.
Before wrapping up, is there anything else that I should have asked you that I didn’t ask you? Anything else you’d like to say, Tricia?
Tricia:
I’ll just mention that people are interested in getting help. We do offer a complimentary breakthrough session, where somebody can speak with one of our mentors and find out what it takes and what my programs are like.
I also do some cool events. I do a Quit Sugar challenge a few times a year, where I will, for five days, teach people literally the mechanics of quitting sugar. There is a process. This is something that changed my life when I learned this information. That’s why I teach it. Literally how to read labels, how to learn the 80+ names for sugar, how to detox from sugar in a safe, relatively easy way. You might have a headache, but you can get through that after day four. It’s a five-day challenge. It also addresses emotional eating, our emotional connection to sugar.
When people hear “quit sugar,” oftentimes they panic. They think they can’t live without sugar. That’s called an emotional relationship. I address that as well. That was me. Sugar was my best friend for all intents and purposes.
The point is, we have some cool events that can serve people as well.
Dr. Eric:
If they get on your email list, they will get alerted when you have those events.
Wonderful. Check out Tricia’s quiz, book, TEDx talk, podcast. A lot of resources. Apply for the breakthrough session.
Thank you so much for having this conversation. A lot of people have this problem. Unfortunately, a lot of people don’t realize it’s a problem. Hopefully, this conversation will make people more aware of this. Appreciate you taking the time to educate my audience about emotional eating.
Tricia:
Thank you so much for having me. It’s been a real pleasure to be here. I’m looking forward to having you on my show.
Dr. Eric:
Look forward to that as well. We will definitely be chatting again soon.