Recently, I interviewed Dr. Catherine Clinton, who is a licensed naturopathic physician, and we discussed her experiences with Hashimoto’s thyroiditis, Lyme disease, and ulcerative colitis, how she first learned about quantum biology’s impact on health, the benefits of grounding, sunlight exposure, and coherence, the significant positive impact of aligning with natural elements to support healing and maintain health, and more. If you would prefer to listen to the interview you can access it by Clicking Here.

Dr. Eric Osansky: 

I am very excited to chat with Dr. Catherine Clinton. We are going to be talking about quantum biology. It’s going to be a very interesting, fascinating conversation, or so I predict. Let me give Dr. Catherine’s brief but sweet bio:

Dr. Catherine Clinton, a licensed naturopathic physician, has spent over 16 years helping people overcome their health issues. Dr. Catherine has learned how our quantum biological system is intimately and inseparably connected to the world around us. Welcome, Dr. Catherine. 

Dr. Catherine Clinton: 

Thank you so much for having me. I’m excited to talk with you. Hope I can live up to the fascinating part. 

Dr. Eric: 

I think it will be. Before I pressed record, I told you I listened to some of your other episodes, and I found them fascinating. I think most of the audience will as well. 

Give a little bit more of your background. I appreciate a short bio, but I want to learn more about you. For those who are not familiar with you, how did you get to where you are right now, focusing on quantum biological systems? 

Dr. Catherine: 

Like the bio says, I’m a licensed naturopathic physician here in Oregon. It was my second year of school, and I became really ill. I was diagnosed with Hashimoto’s thyroiditis, Lyme disease, ulcerative colitis. It was that proverbial straw that broke the camel’s back. The stress of being in medical school, long hours, that initiation year of second year. 

I was in the perfect place to receive those diagnoses. I was right down the hill from a progressive allopathic medical school, an MD teaching school. I was in naturopathic school. I was across the river from an acupuncture school. I had so many tools at my fingertips, which allowed me to put the pieces of my health back together and become productive again, go back to school, be in clinic shifts.

There was a massive piece of my health and vitality that was missing. That’s where quantum biology came in. I was doing clinical rotations with a physician who was actually my physician. She urged me to look at psychoneuroimmunology. That is just a big word for how our thoughts and emotions impact our health. 

At the same time, I was looking at mitochondrial research because it was the latest, greatest thing. This was 20 years ago. I came across a research article from Martin Picard looking at how our state of mind influences the energy production in our cells. Our mitochondria are those little organelles inside of the cell that make energy. It just blew my mind.

At the same time, I was looking at some of the early quantum biology research out of UC Berkeley, where they were looking at how a photon of light gets to a photoreactive center in a photosynthetic bacterium, how photosynthesis occurs. They were finding all these quantum mechanics. They found that that photon could take multiple paths because it’s a quantum particle. It could tunnel through obstacles; in classic physics, we don’t have quantum tunneling.

The thing that really stood out to me is the proteins in this bacterium would vibrate and oscillate at a certain rate in coherence with each other to keep that photon on its fastest path. There was this knowing and this collective action in that cell. It just blew my mind.

I was looking at heart coherence as a way to regulate my own emotions for my own health. It opened the door to this incredible world of quantum biology. I have been fascinated ever since. 

Dr. Eric: 

Awesome. You learned all this while still in naturopathic school. Obviously, it’s evolved over time, but you first got introduced to quantum biology while you were still in school. 

Dr. Catherine: 

There is nothing like three major diagnoses to make you even more interested in health and how the body works. Yes, that’s what I was doing. I had extended my schooling because I had gotten sick. The last year of school, I had a lot of time where I couldn’t see patients because I had met my quota and wasn’t allowed to take patient visits from other students. I spent that time researching. 

Dr. Eric:

I’m sure a lot of people listening to this are familiar with quantum physics. How does that differ from quantum biology? If you could dive deeper there.

Dr. Catherine: 

When people are researching quantum physics, they research that in a lab. It’s conducted in a lab that’s near absolute zero, where no life can exist. It’s shielded from any heat, noise, vibration. They’re looking at quantum mechanics, quantum tunneling, this idea that a quantum particle, like an electron or proton or photon of light, can go through an obstacle of distance or energy, or it can take multiple paths at one time, or it can be entangled with another quantum particle, even though they’re far away from each other. They can still depend on each other; they can still have this relationship as if they’re close, but really, they’re separated by a big distance. 

Quantum coherence, the idea that many things can act together as one to create this backdrop for these quantum mechanical actions to have. 

But quantum biology is this new and emerging field. The new research came out about 20 years ago, in the early 2000s, showing that it’s not just a laboratory shielded from all these things. But living systems also create a beautiful backdrop for these quantum phenomena to happen. 

What quantum biology is is the study of the flow of electrons or protons or photons of light or phonons from sound and how they interact in the body. The more we look at it, the more we learn from the research, we start to understand that our body can really act as receivers. 

This incredible water that is in the body can also act as this liquid crystal structure. It’s able to pick up on this frequency information of light, sound, frequency fields of electrical fields, magnetic fields, electromagnetic fields. It extends our idea of how the body works. 

We were all taught in school. I’m sure you were. It’s still being taught in medical schools across the globe that we are chemical mechanical beings. Disease comes from a chemical imbalance or a mechanical misalignment. 

Now we know that’s true, but the dominant model is this key-in receptor, where we have this key randomly bumping around the cell until it finds and unlocks the receptor, and biological action happens. Now we know that model is true. But it is the random bumping that we are starting to call into question. That is where quantum biology comes into play. 

We are trillions and trillions of cells. Each one of these cells completes hundreds and thousands of tasks each second. Mathematically, that’s impossible in that random collision model. That is where quantum biology comes in and explains things in a much more efficient and really eloquent way. 

Dr. Eric: 

You mentioned earlier the state of mind. You said the state of mind influences the cells and the mitochondria. It just goes beyond the chemical, the physical. How big of a role did all of this play in overcoming Hashimoto’s and ulcerative colitis and Lyme?  

Dr. Catherine: 

I think it played a foundational role. That’s why I’m so excited to talk about it and teach about it now. In school, I was looking for a supplement protocol, an herbal protocol, an acupuncture treatment. I was looking for all these things, but I didn’t realize that our bodies are regulated by the rising and setting of the sun. If that is misaligned, then thousands of biological processes in the body are misaligned. 

I didn’t realize the immense therapeutic value of having my body coming in contact with the ground, the natural dirt beneath my feet, or being out in nature and being immersed in negative ions or the flow of that energy. It just became this incredible awakening. 

Dr. Eric, I think that it’s really important to recognize that this was a checklist. When I first did this, I gotta do this and that and this. Same thing with my patients. They received this checklist. That checklist soon becomes a relationship with the world around us.

 Now I feel a sense of safety and belonging when I see the sun rise, when I am able to be out in nature. That return, that embrace that the natural world offers is this sense of safety and belonging that many of us don’t find in our everyday lives. This rush to be productive and produce and that grind that we experience in modern day life, nature is an incredible antidote to that. Standing in that flow of energy that the natural world offers is foundational to health. That’s why I talk the way I do.

Dr. Eric: 

That’s wonderful. I definitely think there is a time and place for the mechanical and chemical model. I recommend diet, lifestyle, supplementation, functional medicine tests. But there are a lot of people who hit roadblocks in their recovery, and they try to fix it by adding more supplements or doing more testing. I’m not saying that’s not necessary; sometimes, we do need to dig deeper. 

You mentioned the three pillars: coherence, grounding, and sunlight. If someone incorporates those three in combination with the mechanical and chemical model, maybe by itself even, it can make a profound difference in a person’s health and recovery. It sounds like in your case, it made a world of difference.

Dr. Catherine: 

I don’t think it negates that model at all. The chemical mechanical model has produced such an incredible paradigm in health. It’s given us so many answers and tools for our health. But it sometimes doesn’t go far enough. We have those patients that hit those roadblocks, like you said. I absolutely use supplements and lifestyle and diets and testing, but to really place a person back in the context of the natural world, it is free, accessible, and can be really powerful. 

Dr. Eric: 

Definitely agree. Do you mind talking a little bit more about these pillars? Can you start with grounding? Most people probably are familiar with it, but for those who aren’t, talk about it. How do you ground? What do you do on a regular basis? 

Dr. Catherine: 

Grounding is just the idea of coming in physical contact with the surface of the earth or with something that is embedded in the surface of the earth, like placing our hands on a tree or putting our bare feet on the ground. 

We are doing this interview as we enter into winter, and sometimes that can be really uncomfortable or not feasible in the climate. We can use grounding shoes. We can use fabrics that are conductive, like wool or silk or linen.

What we’re doing is the surface of the earth has a net negative charge. Our cells run on a net negative charge as well. We can build up a positive charge. When we come in contact with this sea of free electrons that is lining our earth, what happens is our body is able to get some of that electrical charge and also dissipate some of that positive charge. 

When we are looking at biochemistry, we are looking at this flow of electrons in the body. I wish I knew that when I was in organic chemistry, balancing all those equations. That’s what we’re talking about in biochemistry. We are talking about whether something is oxidized and electron deficient. We know about oxidative damage and the association with inflammation. Or whether something is reduced, and it has a lot of electrons. It can donate electrons to something that is oxidized or in that state of inflammation and quench it. 

That’s what we see with grounding. Grounding not only has that relationship with the negative charge of the earth, but it also has a relationship with the geomagnetic field of the earth. We are coming in contact with this very weak magnetic field. It’s .1 hz. It’s a very low frequency magnetic field, but it is entrained with our blood flow, our heart rate variability, our breath. 

It’s an incredible relationship we have when we come in contact with the surface of the earth. It helps us decrease inflammation. It decreases tension. It helps shift us to a parasympathetic, rest and digest state rather than that sympathetic, dominant, fight or flight state that so many of us are in. It helps us realign our neurological function, our mood, our immune system, our sleep quality. It’s really profound. 

Dr. Eric:

Ideally, you want to do it outdoors if you can, but like you said, because of whatever reason, let’s say the weather, you could get grounding shoes or a grounding mat, and you can do it inside. You could do both also. You could go outside for a little bit each day. 

I don’t know if this is what you do. I don’t know if you spend time outdoors. When you’re inside, are you always using grounding shoes or a grounding mat? Is it just for a certain period of time during the day? 

Dr. Catherine: 

That’s a good question. The way I have set it up is my WiFi router is actually outside. I unplug it at night. In order to start my professional day with contact to the outside world, I have to plug in that WiFi router. I combine that with a morning routine, where I go out, ground, do a little bit of a heart coherence exercise, move my body, get my lymphatics going. Then I will plug in the WiFi and resume daily life, normal modern life.

I think it’s really important for me to start the day that way. It is allowing me to sync with the circadian rhythm of the sun. We know that almost every cell in our body has a circadian clock in it. That means thousands of biological functions are in sync with the rising and setting of the sun. Getting out there in the morning, grounding, doing all these things is really powerful in the way it sets up my day and my overall health. 

Dr. Eric: 

Getting to sunlight, how much exposure do you recommend getting in the morning as well as during the sunset? Five minutes? 15 minutes? 

Dr. Catherine: 

It really isn’t that long. When we’re out there watching the sunrise, we are exposed to so much red and infrared energy. It sends this signal of safety to the nervous system. When that sun comes up about 10 degrees over the horizon, we are getting a lot of blue light, a lot of ultraviolet A light. 

What that is doing is it’s going through our retina and signaling through our melanopsin in the back of our eyes. We have that layer of cells in the retina on the back of the eye. It senses that blue and ultraviolet A light in our environment, and it signals the release of dopamine, serotonin, those kinds of feel-good, motivated hormones. It signals the release of pregnenolone, which is the backbone for our sex hormones, steroid hormones, like testosterone, estrogen, and progesterone. It signals so many different things. It’s involved in our metabolism, hormones, immune system, cortisol system. We are supposed to have that big burst of cortisol and let that wain throughout the day as it dips in the evening. 

It really doesn’t take that much time. On a sunny day, five minutes is plenty. On a day like this—I’m here in Oregon, in the Pacific Northwest—you probably need about 15 minutes because we are in a veil of clouds, and we will be for months now. 15 minutes to do all of those things is really a wise investment, I would say.

Dr. Eric: 

Would you say the person has to have minimal clothing? Can they go out, especially if it’s chilly? Are they getting any benefit just to get exposure with your face and eyes? 

Dr. Catherine:

Yeah. Some of my patients who I deal with are really sick and debilitated. They will not go outside and ground barefoot. They go and open a window and let light in that way. Of course, it’s ideal to go outside, adding some grounding, like we were just talking about. But just getting that light in the eyes. 

When I say that, I don’t mean staring directly at the sun. I mean just letting that natural light into your environment. Those spectrums of light that cue all those biological signals and cascades in the body. It doesn’t have to be my morning routine. It can just be getting exposure of some kind to that natural light. 

Dr. Eric: 

Wonderful. Grounding, sunlight, and coherence. You said you do a heart coherence exercise in the morning. Can you talk about what coherence is and what specifically you do? 

Dr. Catherine: 

Yeah. The Heart Math Institute has done incredible research on the power of the heart to entrain our biology. Our heart has a very big magnetic field, the biggest magnetic field in the human body, hundreds of times bigger than our brain. It actually has what is called the intrinsic nervous system. It sends more neurological signals to the brain than the brain does to the heart. We have this idea of this top-down organization, where the brain is driving everything. We see that the heart can actually entrain our biology.

Heart coherence is this state of gratitude or awe or joy. When we take some deep breaths, and we get into this emotional state, we see that the heart entrains our neurological function. We are wired into our frontal lobe, able to make calm, rational decisions. We are not wired into the amygdala, that fear, fight or flight response. That state of heart/brain coherence entrains many other things in our biology as well. 

All it is is taking some deep breaths in the diaphragm, making sure that exhale is a little bit longer than the inhale, and coming into that heart center, focusing on a feeling of gratitude or awe, something that brings us a sense of amazement or awe. Those feelings can create this relationship or entrainment between the heart and the brain. It ripples out throughout our biology. The Heart Math Institute has done incredible research on this. 

Dr. Eric: 

I use the Inner Balance. You don’t have to use it, like you said. You can just incorporate deep breathing with that feeling of gratitude. All of this is free although you can spend some money to get a grounding mat, grounding shoes, the Inner Balance from Heart Math. You don’t have to do that. You can just go outside barefoot and get some sunlight and do some deep breathing. That’s what’s amazing about it. There is no cost to do that if you don’t want to spend any money. 

One of the things you mentioned you do is something I do as well, which is unplug WiFi at night. You are trying to minimize your exposure to the EMFs, electronic pollution. I think a lot of people still underestimate the impact that has on our health, so it’s great. Just doing what you mentioned, the grounding will help to mitigate some of the effects. If you could talk about why they should consider unplugging the WiFi at night. What else could they do to minimize the impact in addition to grounding? 

Dr. Catherine: 

If we think of ourselves from this quantum biological lens, we see that our cells run on a negative charge. Our cells communicate with electromagnetic frequency. We really can be seen as electrical beings. Non-native WiFi can be a problem and act as interference to that communication and normal biological function. There is something called electrosensitivity, where people are experiencing headaches or fatigue or certain symptoms like this. 

But we know that it is affecting the water in our body. When the water in our body comes against a surface, like a cell membrane or fascia or organs or tissues of all kinds, it takes on a different structure. 

This structure of water, Gerald Pollack and his team out of the University of Washington termed it “exclusion zone” or “EZ water.” This EZ water has a negative charge, and it is associated with health. We know that WiFi decreases that EZ water in the body. It makes sense to mitigate that as much as we can. Getting away from WiFi entirely is pretty impossible for most of us. 

I am so glad you brought up grounding. I have a lot of people who listen to this and think, “I’m in Manhattan. I am by a WiFi tower all the time. I can’t turn anything off. Even if I unplug my router, I’m still surrounded by this.” Okay, I hear you. 

The body is really intelligent, so grounding helps normalize that electrical charge in the body. We have to remember that the body is very resilient. Mitigating it as much as we can, making sure our phones are on airplane mode or are turned off during the night. We can unplug routers. We can wire things. Ethernet, we can wire our computers and phones when we’re using them, so there is not that WiFi signal. Remembering that grounding helps normalize that communication and function in the body is an important thing to remember.

Dr. Eric: 

Definitely agreed with everything you mentioned. 

On another podcast episode, I heard you talk about quantum parenting. Talk about that. That’s unique. It was unique to me at least; I had never heard of quantum parenting until I heard you have a conversation with someone else about it. 

Dr. Catherine: 

When we’re looking at this biological lens of quantum biology, we see that the light in our children’s environment is really important. We talked a little bit about the circadian rhythm and how our body has circadian clocks. Our children are much more sensitive to this. A bright light within an hour of bed decreases their melatonin by 90%. That’s astronomical. That’s a huge, significant decrease. Melatonin is that repair hormone, the sleep hormone. It’s a master antioxidant. It’s anti-inflammatory. It’s part of so many different biological cascades. 

Quantum parenting is just applying the principles of quantum biology to our relationship with raising our children. Making sure they are syncing with the sun. Making sure they are blocking some of that blue light that tells our body it’s noon when it’s really 9pm. Making sure they are getting out in nature. Making sure they are grounding. Making sure that nature is a relationship we foster because nature can really help hold some of the traumas and adversities that our children are facing in the modern world. There is so much science. We could talk for hours about that. 

I think the bottom line is as parents, this idea of heart coherence, when we are in that state of heart coherence and gratitude and presence, it is infectious, contagious. It pulls our children into that state of heart coherence. We are really a safe harbor for our children. If we can be present and maintain as well as we can that state of coherence, that state of curiosity and love and compassion with our children, the safer they will feel. 

We know as physicians that our cells don’t heal if they are in a sense of danger. They have to have that sense of safety. We as parents can offer that to our children. It doesn’t mean that we are perfect. It doesn’t mean that we never experience frustration or anger. 

When we do that, it’s important that our children witness that and witness how we work through that. When I get angry or sad, my children know. If they ask, “Is something wrong?” and I say, “No, nothing’s wrong,” that erodes our relationship. They feel something’s wrong. Instead, I say, “Yes, I’m upset, and I’m taking a second to let go of this because I’m upset about whatever.” Or, “I’m upset,” if it’s not appropriate to go into it with them. I say, “I’m upset, and I’m trying to let that go.” That builds that coherence and that bond between us and creates that safe harbor that our children so desperately need these days. 

Dr. Eric: 

Agreed. 

Going back to where they need to get out in nature, we just don’t see that nearly as much. I remember when I was a child and teenager, I was outside all the time. As a kid, I was outside playing in the dirt, on the grass, getting both the grounding, even though I didn’t know I was grounding at the time, and getting sunlight. 

Now, it’s rare I see kids playing outside. Not that I never do. But it was very common because when I was a child and teenager, there weren’t smart phones and all these devices. It was just a matter of children staying inside the house and doing nothing or going out and playing. Now, unfortunately, a lot of children are inside on their devices. 

I didn’t realize how much it affects melatonin production. 90% decrease in melatonin, which is really bad. That alone should be a reason to encourage your children to minimize electronic use before going to bed, at the very least. At least an hour if not a couple hours before going to bed. We agree? 

Dr. Catherine: 

Absolutely.  

Dr. Eric: 

Can I ask how you’re doing these days? I dealt with chronic Lyme. I can’t say it was debilitating when I dealt with it. I did have some neurological symptoms, and it was scary. I was able to overcome it. Lyme is one of those things that once you have it, you have it. I don’t think it’s gone from my body. I think I’m learning to live in harmony with the chronic Lyme. I don’t feel like I have chronic Lyme even though I’m sure I do have it in the body still.

I dealt with Graves’, a different autoimmune thyroid condition. You dealt with Hashimoto’s, chronic Lyme, and ulcerative colitis, which can be really bad. Can you give an update on your health? How are you doing with these conditions 16 years later? 

Dr. Catherine: 

I’m symptom-free. Like you said, I say it’s part of my deck of cards. I can summon it back if I don’t sleep well. Mostly, it’s the stress. I’ve only had a recurrence in the symptoms in those 16 years due to stress. I know it’s part of my deck of cards, but thankfully, I am symptom-free. 

Dr. Eric: 

Awesome. Hopefully, you continue to remain symptom-free. Before we wrap up, Dr. Catherine, anything else I should have asked you that I didn’t ask you? Anything else you wanted to mention?  

Dr. Catherine: 

No, I think you did a wonderful job, helping us navigate through some of these more heady topics. It really comes down to some commonsense things. Thank you so much for having me on. Thank you for leading us through that conversation.  

Dr. Eric: 

You’re welcome. Thanks for joining us. Can you let everyone know where they can find out more about you? 

Dr. Catherine: 

I’m DrCatherineClinton. That’s my website. That’s my handle on Instagram and YouTube and Facebook. I love to share this information. I have a lot of free resources on my website. I’m always talking about this, so I would be happy to continue the conversation. 

Dr. Eric: 

Awesome. I set up some great expectations. I thought it was a fascinating conversation. I hope everybody listening thought it was fascinating as well. Thank you so much for taking the time to have this conversation, Dr. Catherine. 

Dr. Catherine: 

Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me on.

Recently, I interviewed Corie, who was diagnosed with thyroid eye disease and Graves’ disease and who found that improving her diet greatly helped with her condition. We discussed her path to diagnosis, the symptoms that have resolved and those that continue to linger, the impact of an anti-inflammatory diet, the challenges of being a caregiver for an elderly parent, the role of stress management, the interconnectedness of diet, stress, and thyroid health, and more. If you would prefer to listen to the interview you can access it by Clicking Here.

Dr. Eric Osansky: Welcome to another Save My Thyroid audit. I have with me Corie, who is joining me from Washington State. Corie, thank you so much for joining us. How are you doing today? 

Corie: I’m doing good. Thank you for asking me and for having me on. 

Dr. Eric: You are welcome. I’m really looking forward to this conversation. You have been dealing with thyroid eye disease. You wrote that it took them a long time to diagnose this. You have had some godo results following an AIP diet. How long ago was it that you were diagnosed with thyroid eye disease? 

Corie: It was last year. It took them forever. It actually started in March. My mother had just passed away. I got this big bags under my eyes. I just thought it was from being outside, mowing the lawn without wearing a hat becusae the sun is pretty intense here. That was all the beginning of it. 

At the end of July, I started with the double vision. I had that for at least two months before they actually sent me to an eye specialist who said, “You have thyroid eye disease.” At that time, I had seen an endocrinologist, but he wasn’t even sure that I had thyroid eye disease. Anyway, he had ordered all the tests, and they came back positive for Graves’. After the professional eye specialist said that about the TD, then he agreed with it. 

Dr. Eric: You had the TSI that was elevated. The TRABs. You’re on methimazole, 2.5mg? 

Corie: I was, yes. My endocrinologist only ordered it until each time I was going to go back and see him, so I had run out of it. I put in a request to have it refilled because it wasn’t time yet for me to see him, and that’s when he found out he was gone. They hadn’t notified me of that. He had ordered the repeat labs already, so I had those done. They told me I could go ahead and have them done even though he wasn’t there. My TSH was six something. When my attending went ahead and reordered the methimazole, I did not go back on it. 

Dr. Eric: Your TSH was 6 when you were on the methimazole? 

Corie: Yes. 

Dr. Eric: Wow. 2.5mg, very low dose. That was probably a good indication you didn’t need the methimazole any longer. Your antibodies have improved, but they’re still elevated? 

Corie: Yes. The TRAB is now 3.96, and the TSI is down to 260%. 

Dr. Eric: 260%. The range is less than 140% on that lab? 

Corie: Correct. 

Dr. Eric: The TRAB is probably 1.75. They are definitely elevated but not as high as they were. The double vision has improved. You’re no longer experiencing that? 

Corie: Yes. After about five or six months, just before I went on the AIP diet, it cleared up. It started fluctuating t first. I had gone ahead and gotten the prism glasses because I couldn’t drive or anything because I couldn’t see well enough. Everything was raised above the other. My eye doctor wasn’t very familiar with it. He had told me if I went that route, I wouldn’t be able to go back to normal glasses. It turned out he was wrong. I was able to easily go back to regular glasses once the double vision cleared up. 

Dr. Eric: You went on AIP after the double vision cleared up. Diet had nothing to do with the double vision improving. 

Corie: No, not the double vision, but it greatly improved all the eye swelling I had. That really ewnt down. In fact, I had been sent to another rspecialist because I had considered doing that medicine that they do for the thyroid eye disease. He was the only one in the area that did it. 

Dr. Eric: Was it Tepezza? 

Corie: Yes. When I went to see him, it was the university of Oregon, they were doing some kind of study. He offered me to be included in the study group of this experimental drug they were doing. While I was debating it, I had gone on that AIP diet. Everything greatly improved. When I went back to see him, he was impressed with how less everything was. I still had the fat that builds up around your eyes and the bulging, but mine wasn’t quite as bad as some other people who have had a lot of trouble with that. Everything was put on hold as far as that. I was glad. When he told me the percentage of people who have a recurrence of the thyroid eye disease after Tepezza, and some of the other ones, I didn’t want to go that route. Plsu you can have hearing problems with it, and I already had hearing problems from a childhood tumor. I didn’t want any more. 

Dr. Eric: I agree. With Tepezza, hearing loss is one of the potential side effects. tinnitus, ringing in the ears, another one. Some people do need more than one round. If those who are not familiar with Tepezza, it’s infusions. You get eight infusions three weeks apart. I believe it’s still like that. Some people might go through the 24 weeks and might need additional treatment with Tepezza. The side effects can be a little scary. I’m glad you also didn’t need to take Teepzza. 

Do you know what your antibodies were previously? You said your antibodies decrease.d I don’t know if you have handy your previous numbers. 

Corie: Yes, the TRAB started at 11.59. 

Dr. Eric: Okay. 

Corie: My TSI originally was 356%, but it went up to 446% and then started coming down after I went on AIP. 

Dr. Eric: It was originally 356 and went up to 446. 

Corie: Right. 

Dr. Eric: Now it’s 260. Wonderful. You’re no longer following AIP. You followed it for three or four months? 

Corie: I still pretty much follow it. I definitely don’t do any of the gluten. I stopped that. I try and stay on it. My worst thing is Diet Coke. When I was on the strict AIP, I was good about it. I did the paleo diet several years ago, but ecause of the weight I lost, it bottomed out my blood pressure, and my heart rate was up. I have no idea. They told me I wasn’t drinking enough and eating enough salt. I slacked off on that. I still kind of follow a paleo diet but not as strict. 

Dr. Eric: How frequently do you drink Diet Coke? 

Corie: Probably a couple times a week. I used to have it in the house. that was my main drink. I don’t keep it in the house at all because otherwise I wouldn’t drink anything else. 

Dr. Eric: Otherwise, you said you’re gluten-free. Are you dairy-free as well? 

Corie: I was dairy-free. It was one of the things I reintroduced. It didn’t seem The only thing it ever did with me was a runny nose. I have found that since I did the AIP, everything almost makes my nose run. I can eat an apple and get a runny nose. I’m never sure exactly what causes it. 

Dr. Eric: Might have some histamine issues. How is your gut? You can’t always go by symptoms, but do you have any digestive symptoms? Do you have regular bowel movements, or do you have more constipation or loose stools? 

Corie: No, I have regular bowel movements. If I try to eat some of the retirndouced foods, like gluten free, I might have more trouble being regular. I make a raw sauerkraut. As long as I remember to have some of that every day, I’m usually pretty good. I don’t have a lot of trouble with that. That’s why it was hard for me to say, “Yeah, I had leaky gut” when I never really had any major gut symptoms. The only thing I ever had was kind of a sludge gallbladder, but that’s gone back and forth. Sometimes, they tell me I have it, and other times, they tell me I don’t. 

Dr. Eric: All right. Any other not necessarily digestive symptoms, but any other symptoms? Are your energy levels okay? Do you have any other symptoms that bother you? 

Corie: I do have fatigue. I also get up very early, and I don’t always get in the eight hours of sleep I would like to get. We take care of my 95-year-old mother-in-law who has Alzheimer’s. If I want to get anything done, I like to do my Bible reading and prayer time in the morning. I have to get up early. Otherwise, she is wandering around. I don’t always get enough sleep, so I never know if that’s why I’m tired a lot of the time, or if it actually is food-related or Graves’-related. 

Dr. Eric: Could be any of these. Not getting enough sleep is a common cause of why a lot of people have fatigue. Eating the wrong foods could be a factor as well. Reacting to foods. Graves’ itself If someone has high thyroid hormone levesl due to Graves’, that won’t necessarily cause fatigue, but the inflammation associated with it. it can also have a negative effect on mitochondria, the energy powerhouses of cells. Sometimes, in some people, Graves’ will cause fatigue. When I dealt with Graves’ back in 2008, I didn’t deal with fatigue. Over the years, working with a lot of people with hyperthyroidism, some people do for the reasons I mentioned and other reasons as well. Nutrient deficiencies could be an issue. I’ve had patients and one audit people have lower nutrients such as iron. The only way to know is by testing. This person post-menopause, so she wasn’t cycling. She was actually following more of a carnivore-based diet. She was getting enough through diet. But in her case, it was gut-related. Obviously, everyone is different. My point is nutrient deficiencies could also sometimes cause fatigue.

Is everything else okay? Is it mainly just low energy levels? Are you experiencing any pain, like joint pain or muscle pain? 

Corie: I already had back problems. I think I told you I was an ICU RN. I hurt my back at work. I had surgery. I have chronic back problems. I also have in the past I’ve had hip problems because of mindalo injury. It goes down into your hips. Most of that has been eliminated with the anti-inflammatory diet. I used to be on Aleve all the time. When I read what it does to the gut, I stopped it again. When I went on paleo, I was able to get off of it because it took care of all the inflammation at that time. when we stopped doing the strict paleo, then I ended up back on it because I was getting hip pain again. 

Anyway, with this, when I read all the stuff that it does to your gut, I stopped taking it. I haven’t really had any trouble except for my elbow. It bothers me. Probably from gardening stuff. 

Dr. Eric: Just your elbow. Sleep could be better, which is understandable hwy it’s not, with your mother-in-law. I’m sure that’s a little bit stressful, too. 

Corie: Oh, that’s the major stress I have. I’m convinced that’s what kicked me over into Graves’. I think I had mentioned that I had been on thyroid medicine because I had gone to a nurse practitioner who told me, “Most people feel better at a higher level.” I think I was 2. Something. She thought I would feel better at a different level. I can’t remember now since it was back in 2013 if she meant lower or higher than what I was. She put me on the medicine. 

I have a strong family history of Hashimoto’s. everybody just assumed I had Hashimoto’s. I don’t know whether I did or not because they never did the antibodies at that time. they didn’t do those until later. My Hashimoto’s antibodies were all negative. 

Dr. Eric: Probably not if they were negative years later, they probably were negative back then as well. Just the TSI and TRAB recently, those were the only ones positive? 

Corie: Correct. 

Dr. Eric: One question I have is how would you like your health to be 6-12 months from now? In your opinion, what is the #1 thing from preventing you from restoring your health, from getting your antibodies to be normal? Is there a potential roadblock? Maybe it’s the stress we spoke about. 

Corie: I’d like to be like you, where I was able to put the Graves’ into remission. that’s what I would like. Have all my labs normal. 

It is a big stress factor with my mother-in-law. You’d think as a nurse, I could handle this, and I would be okay and know how to deal with it. But I’m not very good at it. She is sweet, too. It’s not like she is a terror to take care of or anything. It’s the constant repetitive reminding her to do this or that or not do this or that. Right now, there is no other option for her, so I’m trying to be better at it. I’m not doing really well at it. 

I didn’t realize about the Graves’ rage. I just saw your podcast on that. I didn’t realize it was a thing. I often wondered. I have a temper because my dad had a temper. We grew up with that. I had hoped, giving me an excuse, that the Graves’ had something to do with it. I was having a lot of trouble controlling, suddenly getting mad about something that was little or stupid. I’m working on that. 

Dr. Eric: Okay. The Graves’ rage. I probably should have come out with that episode sooner. I didn’t experience Graves’ rage when I dealt with Graves’, but a lot of people do. It does affect mood and makes some people more angry and irritable. Pretty common. 

You want to get into remission, which is everybody who listens to this podcast. they want to restore their health and get the antibodies normal. I have some podcast episodes onantibodies. I do have an episode #150 where I talk about lowering antibodies. You did a lot of things with diet, which is great. It goes beyond that. I also will have a series of podcast episodes talking about lowering antibodies, so look out for that. 

Have you read my most recent book Hyperthyroid healing Diet? 

Corie: I have both of them. I’m in the middle of that book, on page 300 almost. 

Dr. Eric: I should have asked you. How did you find out about me originally? 

Corie: There is a girl back home who contacted me after my sister-in-law had told everyone I had Graves’, and she had Graves’. She had it far worse than me because she had blood pressure and high heart rate. She told me about Dr. Amy Meyers’ book. Then she said, “And there’s this other book here with this guy, but I haven’t gotten that one yet.” When I saw it, I ordered both your books. Your first one, I read right away. I loved it. It was very down to earth and easy to read. All your tips were very easy to implement. Nothing was hard about it. nothing seemed daunting. When you’re first going through this kind of stuff, everything can seem daunting, but your book was very easy to read. I really enjoyed that. I enjoyed hers, too, but hers took me longer to go through than yours. She actually gets into more technical stuff, which is noting wrong with that. Your second book goes through more technical stuff, so that’s why it’s taking me a little longer to get through. 

Dr. Eric: Dr. Meyers. Years ago, around 2015, she had a thyroid summit, so I was part of that. I was the only speaker on hyperthyroidism. That is the only erason why I was part of the summit because she oculdn’t find anybody else. I sent her a copy of my book, and she invited me on the podast to talk about hyperthyroidism. You can find it on her YouTube channel now. She spelled my name wrong, “Erik,” and it’s “Eric.” I think she posted it in 2023, but it’s from 2015. 

You want to normalize your antibodies. Stress is one of the biggest roadblocks. Obviously, you can’t eliminate the stressor. You’re not alone. A lot of people are caretakers. My dad had some health issues. He’s in his mid-80s. He doesn’t live with me, so it’s a difffernet situation, but it’s still a stressor. With you, it’s a bigger stressor because your mother-in-law is living with you. Dealing with Alzheimer’s is challenging. It’s good she has a good personality. Even though you can’t change this situation, you still have to try your best to work on stress management. Try to get as much sleep as you can. If you can, maybe take mini naps. I don’t know if she takes naps during the day. It might seem like an opportunity to do things if she does that, but you also want to take care of your health. If you are only getting 5-6 hours of sleep, and you’re waking up to try to get things done, or staying up late, it will be hard to recover. Definitely try to get another 30-45 minutes of sleep, whether it’s at night or with naps. Block out tiem for stress management, even if it’s 5-10 minutes, doing some deep breathing. Do adrenal testing, which I recommend to everybody. Probably you have adrenal issues. I usually recommend adnreal testing, so we can see what imbalances someone has. Have you done any functional medicine testing or just typical blood testing? 

Corie: I did do the adrenals. The regular MD ordered it, so it was all blood testing. 

Dr. Eric: Just cortisol in the morning, DHEA, maybe? 

Corie: Right. I do have those. The ACTH was 7. The AM cortisol was 10. He did a DHEA sulfate, and that was 19. 

Dr. Eric: Hmm. That seems low. Depends on the range of DHEA sulfate. They must have used a different range. 

Corie: They all said they were within normal range, but some were on the lower end of normal. 

Dr. Eric: Even cortisol in the blood, 10 is within the range, but sometimes the blood tests spikes up the cortisol. Either getting the blood draw itself. Sometimes, it will make it higher than it looks. If someone is a 10, to me, you might be a 10, but you might be lower than that. The advantage of saliva testing is looking at the circadian rhythm of cortisol. Cortisol fluctuates throughout the day. Should be at the highest level in the morning and gradually decrease throughout the day. Some MDs are starting to recommend saliva testing, but most do blood testing. DHEA or DHEAS, ACTH as well, which is a pituitary hormone, kind of like TSH for adrenals.

Getting back to thyroid eye disease. AIP helped. Have you done anything else, like taking selenium or Vitamin D? Have you had Vitamin D tested and supplemented? 

Corie: I don’t think I’ve had Vitamin D tested. I have been on selenium for a long time, years. We have been taking that. D3. I had someone tell me that everyone in the Pacific Norhtwest needs to take Vitamin D because we don’t get as much sunshine as everybody else. We take 5,000 Ius of D3 a day. 

Dr. Eric: I take 5,000 Ius per day. Not to say everybody needs that. I would say ask your doctor in the future to do a test just to see what it shows, just to make sure you’re not taking too much. Who knows? Maybe you need more. You don’t want to take too much where your levels are over 100 or are still not optimal. Are you taking Vitamin K2 with that? 

Corie: No. 

Dr. Eric: Make sure next time- You can either take it separately. A lot of Vitamin D3 supplements come with K2. Vitamin D increases intestinal absorptoion of calcium, and the K2 helps to guide the calcium into the bone. I would say to take some K2 with that. 

You’re doing some great things. The AIP diet. I know you mentioned in the form the reintroductions. You have already done some. Diet Coke wouldn’t be one of the first ones I would have recommended. Dr. Sarah Ballantyne, I mentioned this in my book, so you should know how to do reintroductions because I have information on doing that. Dr. Sarah Ballantyne also has stages of reintroduction, which I mentioned. I usually recommend following something like that. Eggs would be the first thing, or egg yolks would be the first thing to reintroduce for most people. going down the list for different stages. Ideally, if you are going to introduce foods that aren’t as nutrient-dense or healthy like Diet Coke, that would be later on the list. I know you already reintroduced those. you want to reintroduce things one at a time. How do you know if you are getting a reaciton? one at a time, every few days. It’s not prefect, but usually if you get some type of reaction, you’re just focusing on one food at a time. you’ll notice a difference. Diet can make a big difference with Graves’ and thyroid eye disease. The Vitamin D, selenium, having healthy omega-3s. if you’re eating fish two or three times a week, great. If not, maybe consider supplementing with fish oil. 

Just like I talk about in my books, besides diet and lifestyle, sometimes you do need to go beyond that and look for other areas for triggers. Finding and removing triggers, doing things to reduce your toxic burden, sometimes looking at infections. I know things can get pricey and add up. It doesn’t mean you have to spend thousands of dollars on testing, but that’s also omething to keep in mind.

In your sitatuion, the #1 thing right now is focusing on diet and lifestyle. It’s still not optimal. You are following AIP. I will say to stop the Diet Coke because the impact it could have on the gut microbiome potentially. There is some controversy over that. Some of the artificial sweeteners might negatively affect gut microbiome. If anything, follow a regular paleo diet if you don’t want to follow AIP. 

The stress and sleep. It’s easy to say let’s do a bunch of testing. If you don’t have the diet and lifestyle in order, which is what The Hyperthyroid Healing Diet is about, it will be hard to recover. You have gotten some great changes with those antibodies so far. Before you do a lot of future testing, you might not need to do that, bear down on the diet and lifestyle, the stress management, the sleep. I know you’re doing a lot, but you could maybe do a little more under the circumstances. That is whatI would work on. I do recommend saliva testing and looking at nutrients and heavy metals. Sometimes, I’ll do gut testing. In your situation, it makes sense, not that you can’t do some of those other tests, but definitely focus on trying to do your best t ohandle stress and see if you can get more sleep. 

Corie: Okay, thank you. 

Dr. Eric: All right, you’re welcome. Thank you so much for doing this, Corie. Appreciate you getting together for this audit. Hope you found this to be valuable. Hoep the listeners found this conversation to be valuable. Hope you’er finding these audits to be helpful. Look forward to catching you in a future audit and a future episode. Take care. Thank you so much, Corie. 

Corie: Thank you very much.

Recently, I interviewed Dr. Brandon Crawford, an expert in laser and light therapy and neurophysiology, and we discussed how laser and light therapies can be used for conditions like Graves’ disease and Hashimoto’s, the differences between laser and LED therapies, why properly calibrated lasers are crucial, integrating laser therapy with other treatments, the importance of natural sunlight, and more. If you would prefer to listen to the interview you can access it by Clicking Here.

Dr. Eric Osansky: 

I am super excited to chat with Dr. Brandon Crawford. We are going to be talking about laser therapy, tying it into thyroid health, talking about LEDs. Going to be a great conversation. 

Before getting into the conversation, let me dive into Dr. Brandon’s impressive bio here. Dr. Brandon Crawford is a renowned expert in functional neurology and photobiomodulation with a focus on brain rehab and regenerative medicine. He holds degrees from Texas A&M University and Park University, including a doctorate in chiropractic. 

As a licensed chiropractor in both Texas and Dubai and a fellow of the International Board of Functional Neurology, Dr. Crawford leads in his field. He is the pioneer and founder of the NeuroSolution Center of Austin and co-founded the NeuroSolution Center in Atlanta and related ventures. 

Dr. Crawford is the co-founder of NeuroSolutions Products, a global medical distribution company. He is a laser expert and is pioneering a new and innovative form of laser therapy. He has personally developed and designed the 528 Innovations therapy lasers.

A global lecturer, he is known for his work in laser and light therapy within functional neurology. He is authoring a book on neuroplasticity for brain injuries.

Dr. Crawford champions the NeuroSolutions ESM method, focusing on energy, sensory, and movement. He is a sought-after expert on diverse healthcare topics. 

He has now begun educating the masses through his podcast series The Longevity Formula, which can be found on all major podcast platforms and YouTube.

Welcome, Dr. Crawford. 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: 

Thank you so much. You make me sound really good. Whoever wrote that, I’m really happy they wrote that for you. Thanks, man. I’m really happy to be here.

Dr. Eric: 

Same here. Like I said initially, it is an impressive bio. You’re working on a book. When will that be released? 

Dr. Brandon: 

It’s finished. It’s been finished for a while. I do have a book agent. One thing that he is telling me is this book is really good. What are your goals? My goals with the book are to help patients and caregivers navigate through this process of brain injury. It was something that I really think was needed. People reach out to us all the time. They’re in the ICU or just got admitted to the hospital. They really need answers. The purpose of the book was to help those families navigate these scenarios. 

One of my initial offerings came from Nova, which was exciting. I loved the idea of being published in the academic texts. That didn’t really jive with the goals of what I wanted for the book. We’re in the process of talking to different publishers and really trying to make sure we get this book out there properly. I actually have a meeting with my book agent in the near future. Hopefully, he has some good news for me, and it will be released in the very near future. 

Dr. Eric: 

Good luck with that. I’m sure it will work out. 

How did you become known as an expert in laser and light therapy? If you could get into your background before we dive into the subject.

Dr. Brandon: 

Very good question. The way that I would want to answer it is I have always been extremely intrigued by light. I have a strong faith, and I grew up in the Bible Belt of Texas. Small Texas town. I remember sitting in church one day, hearing that God created light before he created life. It wasn’t spoken that way. That wasn’t how the message was delivered, but that’s what my mind heard.

From a very young age, my mind was wrapped around this concept of there is this very intimate connection with light and life. One does not survive without the other. It really set things into motion.

The funny thing is, I guess in junior high, I had to have a reconstructive chest surgery. My parents are like, “We’ll get you anything. What do you want? Do you want a video game? What do you want after your recovery?” I said I wanted a laser. “What? You want a laser?” “Yeah.” I was talking about those pin lasers. That’s all I wanted. I was that infatuated with it. “Okay, we’ll get you a pin laser.” I was in recovery after the surgery, playing with this laser, pointing it at nurses. It’s always intrigued me.

There is this story about how I fell into the profession of chiropractic. I wanted to be a neurosurgeon, and I got married. I looked at divorce rates of surgeons, and I decided I really liked my wife, so I’d rather not go into that. I’m a nerd with researching and probabilities and numbers. 

It took a turn. I got accepted into pharmacy schools. I was actually just praying, trying to decide which one to go to. This voice in my head clearly and loudly said, “You are not going to pharmacy school.” It made me start to think, What am I supposed to do? 

I was led to go shadow the chiropractor who helped me after I had a failed back surgery in high school. I did that. I fell in love with that. I knew that wasn’t the form of chiropractic I was supposed to do.

When I was in chiropractic school, my first semester there, Dr. John Donofrio, the president of the Chiropractic Neurology Board at that point in time, did an impromptu lecture on how stimulating physical receptors can influence the brain and nervous system. I went up to him and said, “You don’t know me, and I don’t know you. This is exactly what I’m supposed to do.” He took me in at that stage in my career. I was just getting started. It was amazing. I got to start to learn functional neurology, and it was amazing. This does dovetail into the laser question. 

Here’s what happened. I got to start listening in and helping out on the cases that Dr. Donofrio was seeing. One of them was actually a rare pediatric genetic brain disorder. It was a disorder where the brain does not really develop. Sometimes, it ends in severe retardation. Sometimes, it ends in death. It’s one of those conditions where the brain doesn’t develop. 

I remember working through the case with them. “What are you going to do?” He said, “They’ve tried everything. They’ve been all over the world. They’ve done everything there is to offer, but they haven’t used laser on the brain.” This is still when that wasn’t really a thing. 

Using laser therapy on the brain is relatively new; over the past 20 years is really when it’s been looked at heavily. This was roughly 16 years ago or so, maybe 17 years. “Laser on the brain? What are you talking about?” “We are going to laser the brain. It has a high safety profile. This is something that could potentially help.”

That’s what he did. He started using laser on the brain. Did some functional neurology work he does. He did that for about a year. 

Fast forward, at one of the checkups, the doctor comes in. This must be the wrong patient because this is not what I would expect out of this diagnosis. The kid developed in ways that should not have happened. 

At that moment, when I saw this play out, I knew no matter what I do, whether it’s functional neurology or something else, lasers is what I have got to attach to. That really not only piqued my interest even more, but it set a fire under me to figure out why did this help something that all medical literature says this shouldn’t happen? Why did this work? 

I spent my career trying to figure out the kinetics of it, the physics of it, all that stuff. The cool thing is it’s really set things in motion to get me to where I am at today. That’s the, believe it or not, short answer of how this has happened. 

I don’t know where you want to go from there, but that’s my story in a nutshell and how I fell into this laser therapy thing. 

Dr. Eric: 

I guess let’s start by giving an introduction to laser therapy for those who are not too familiar with wavelengths. I don’t know if you want to go into laser beam physics. Obviously not too much in depth. Just give an overview? 

Dr. Brandon: 

Sure. Laser and light therapy, we first need to understand that there are some differences when it comes to lasers and LEDs. LEDs are not laser diodes. You will get a slightly different response. It depends on the goals you’re trying to achieve. By the way, I use both. I use laser diodes and LEDs. Both are in my practice and in my home.

Here’s how I’ll describe it. Just like I would describe the differences between a Ferrari and a Kia. They are both cars. They will both get you from point A to B. The Ferrari will get you there faster and more effectively. That is a very crude way of describing laser versus LED. 

When I want to be very specific and efficient, I have a very specific target or goal in mind, I am reaching for my laser. Oftentimes, I want to be sure to use this specifically over my brain. I use my laser over my thyroid, over everything. 

If I want more of a generalized healing experience, I want to in general reduce my inflammation, I want to improve my wellbeing, I am good to lay under my LED panel. Very different goals. Both very beneficial. 

The concepts of both of these modalities can be summed up in a term called photobiomodulation. That is a fancy term that just means changing life with light. What we need to understand is that we are extremely intimately connected with light. We have so many different cellular mechanisms that are set into motion or not set into motion based on the type of light that we are exposed to. 

We are typically underneath this high frequency white and blue light. I am not. I had a certain type of light put into my office, so I am not subjected to those harsh wavelengths. We need to understand that even that exposure to light is driving certain cellular processes inside of us. It can promote inflammation. It can promote obesity and diabetes. 

To combat that, we need to understand that there are certain wavelengths, like red, that actually help to combat the excessive exposures to the white and blue light that we are subjected to so much. That’s why you have seen this huge propagation, whether it be in marketing or clinical use, of all of these red-light devices. They’re good. They help us heal faster. The need is there, specifically because of the type of light exposure that we are subjecting ourselves to on a daily basis. 

Someone who lives in Costa Rica, and they’re outside in the sun all day, they’re going to be less responsive to a red-light panel or red laser because they are not sitting under these toxic lights all day. I can argue that in multiple different directions. 

If someone has an injury of any type, what research has demonstrated is that red and infrared light are going to speed up recovery no matter what. That is the beautiful thing. We now know certain things about certain wavelengths.

When I’m talking about wavelengths, what we need to understand when I say that is think about the color of light. Red has a different wavelength than green, has a different wavelength than purple, etc. We can talk about the differences in all of those wavelengths if we want to get more granular. As you change the wavelength, you are going to be influencing different receptors inside the cell and the body. We know that red and infrared will accelerate healing, improve blood flow, improve neuroplasticity, and more beneficial things. 

If I could summarize, what is this laser and light therapy thing? Where did it come from? The overarching message is this has been around for a very long time. Research really began in this field in the 1960s, looking at how red light influences various things. There are thousands of studies for photobiomodulation. There are hundreds of human clinical trials. This modality is so safe, so effective, that I personally think that every provider needs to be using it. Every home needs to be leveraging some type of photobiomodulation. That is my own personal opinion. 

As we continue to move forward in medicine, I do believe that this is at the front edge of it. I can elaborate about some of the studies we’re doing to push that forward. Those are my initial thoughts on it. I don’t know how granular you want to get into the details. 

Dr. Eric: 

That was great. You’re mentioning that LED is maybe for more generalized treatment, generalized inflammation. For those listening, most of the audience consists of those with thyroid conditions, thyroid autoimmunity. If it’s a choice between laser and LED, I understand you use both of those, there is nothing wrong with using both of those, and you can get benefits from both. If there was a choice to help with thyroid healing, or helping with the immune system, you would say that laser therapy is maybe a better or more specific option when it comes to healing? 

Dr. Brandon: 

Yes, I will agree with you. Both are good options. In my experience, what you’re going to find is if you use a properly made laser, if you use a laser that is the right wavelength, calibration, frequency—which I will explain—you will get results faster. 

Today, there is roughly 20 articles in the peer-reviewed literature that look at what happens to the thyroid when you use photobiomodulation over it. Most of these are studies using LED. Those studies all agree that this is a good thing for the thyroid. You see anything from reduction of antibodies to reduced need for medication to general reduction in thyroid symptoms. Across the board, you see very good results when using photobiomodulation for the thyroid.

There are some studies that would suggest there is no difference in LED versus laser diode. I would suggest there are some metrics you could look at otherwise in those studies that were not looked at.

You also have studies that suggest laser diode is more effective than LED. I am just laying all this out there because I know there are some intelligent listeners out there.

Me personally, I have done pilot studies in my office. I have also done tests on myself. I have both Hashimoto’s and primary hypothyroid. My thyroid responds best when I use a properly calibrated laser on my thyroid versus using the LED panel. I get responses both ways. I get a better response with the laser.

Now let’s talk about the laser physics. No laser is made equal. This is the best way I can explain laser physics. If I am having this conversation, and I am speaking to you and say, “How are you today?” in a nice, relaxed way, you will have a certain neurophysiological response. If I yell the same words at you, that will evoke a different neurophysiological response in you. 

Here’s the argument. Same words, different response. It’s not just about delivering photons. That’s what it is. It’s about the quality of the laser beam. It’s about the laser beam physics. What is the polarization? What is the pulse rate? What is the duty cycle? All of these things shape the voice if you will of that laser beam. 

This was really shown to me initially by the work of Dr. Todd Ovokaitys. He was able to calibrate a laser beam that specifically spoke to VSELs in plasma. VSELs are a type of stem cell. It stands for Very Small Embryonic-Like Stem Cell. I thought that was so amazing. You can shine a light into plasma, and you can change surface receptors and activate stem cells specifically based on the physics of that laser beam, not just a wavelength, not just the frequency, but so many factors. That really showed me the importance of a properly calibrated laser beam. Understanding that not every laser is made the same, and understanding that if we do this right, the effects are so far reaching. 

That is what a lot of my pilot work is right now. I’m designing three different studies right now. We are looking at how we can continue this work and not have to draw someone’s blood to activate those VSELs. How can we do this from using a laser exteriorly on someone? We have other things that we are looking at as well. 

That is where it gets really exciting: when we can really tailor that laser beam because we understand the physics of it now and have a very specific neurophysiological response. 

Dr. Eric: 

When someone goes on Amazon and gets a laser for $200, that isn’t necessarily the same as the laser that you use in your practice. Maybe not the same as lasers that you give someone. You sometimes recommend home units for people? 

Dr. Brandon: 

Correct. If you want something, and you just want the cheapest thing, go LED. When we write a home care for someone, and they want to include laser therapy at home, we write that home care specific to the type of laser that they’re going to be using. We only recommend the lasers that we have in NeuroSolution, which obviously NeuroSolution is using the 528 Innovations laser that we developed. We are very specific about that. 

Yeah, if you are looking for the lowest cost solution, I would definitely suggest going LED for several different reasons. I already talked about the physics. When you get a cheaper laser diode, it is probably not going to last very long. That laser diode is going to be subject to heat. That laser probably is not very well cooled. That diode is going to crack, and you will have a different wavelength shooting out at you. If you are going for a cost-effective thing, go LED. 

Dr. Eric: 

Okay. If someone has a thyroid condition, LED can help, but let’s say someone has Hashimoto’s, and they are looking to heal their thyroid, address their immune system, LED over a long run might help, but they are looking for quicker results. It sounds like they probably should see a practitioner like yourself. 

Dr. Brandon: 

Absolutely. As always, work with someone who knows what they’re doing. Not every physician knows how to navigate that scenario from a laser perspective. As you well know, there will be so many factors that go into that patient that need to be addressed, too. I won’t make the statement that laser your thyroid, and it will all go away. That is not what I want to promote. If only to aid someone’s recovery. 

I will say that I have personally been in remission from Hashimoto’s. I have to do more than just laser my thyroid, but that is part of my routine. I can do that. I also am very good at getting myself out of remission. I am really good at spiking my antibodies and driving my TSH up. I know how to do that. Understanding that is how I know how to flip it and get better. 

Dr. Eric: 

Based on what you just said, I think it’s safe to say that laser can help but probably alone is not going to get someone in remission. if someone just goes to a chiropractor or another practitioner to get laser therapy but are not incorporating diet and lifestyle factors, maybe they need to do additional functional medicine testing. If all they do is the laser, they might get some results, but it by itself won’t necessarily address the cause of the problem. 

Dr. Brandon: 

Correct. The way I like to explain that is whatever you do, if you add photobiomodulation to it, you’re going to enhance the results. Think of it like an accelerator. Think of it as an additive to whatever therapies you’re doing. 

I’ve had the benefit to be able to work with healthcare professionals in so many different regards, whether it be chiros, PTs, oncologists, ortho surgeons, neurosurgeons, speech therapists, gastro docs, I could go on. I have been in this field, so I get to consult. The #1 thing when a provider gets a laser is they need to learn how to use it. I get to be that guy walking through best use cases for certain demographics of patients. That is the prevailing thing. 

You’re doing good work. If you want to move the needle even more, add photobiomodulation to what you’re doing, and you will enhance results even more.

Dr. Eric: 

Have you had any experience with Graves’? Do you know if laser therapy can help with Graves’? Are there any contraindications? 

Dr. Brandon: 

Yes. I have personal experience through my patient base using photobiomodulation with Graves’. What we need to understand, and this is found in the research and also through clinical experience, is that photobiomodulation, laser and light therapy, is very regulatory in what it does. It’s going to regulate systems. We see this played out in the literature with NF-Kappa B, calcium influx into the cell, all different examples.

With the thyroid, specifically with Graves’, what you’re going to see is if you have hyperfunctioning, if the thyroid is functioning too high, once you start to employ photobiomodulation, it will regulate and bring it down. If you have low functioning thyroid, once you use photobiomodulation, it will bring it up. It regulates systems. This is very consistent in the research. 

This is my clinical observation. What I have seen with Graves’ is for some reason that I’m still trying to figure out, there is this transient spike. We start working with someone, and it’s like we get a flare. That can oftentimes be within a week or two weeks. Then it comes down. It’s not like it’s a pathological state where they’re worse. It’s this little flare. 

I started thinking through it similarly to how I think through seizures. We notice that with seizure disorders, too. When we started using laser therapy for seizures, there would be this transient uptick and subsequent reduction. Ultimately, I have seen seizure disorders, even genetic disorders eliminated.

I started thinking through how it must be related to how much energy we’re delivering to the system. Are we overdoing it? Are we giving them too much in too short a period of time? 

What I did was started using more infrared on that patient when we would start with them. In infrared, specifically near infrared, it’s a longer wavelength of light. The infrared spectrum is invisible to the eye, so it’s wavelength color that you don’t see. The wavelength is longer, it penetrates deeper, but the energy per photon is less. It’s a less energetic photon that’s being delivered than, say, a red photon. 

Once we made that change, it really eliminated that little flare that we see in these autoimmune patients, not just Graves’, but other conditions, too. With that strategy, I have been able to navigate it. I still tell people, “Hey, initially, be aware that you might get this little flare. Stay with it. It should regulate.” 

Dr. Eric: 

Very important to know for someone with Graves’ getting laser treatment. 

How about getting natural sunlight? If someone is doing LED every day, and they also on top of that are doing laser, do you also recommend for them to get natural sunlight, too? 

Dr. Brandon:

Absolutely. I think that’s non-negotiable. Here’s the thing. I can make the best laser in the world. I’m biased, but I think I have. That still is not going to replace the sun. 

I can discuss this from multiple angles. The angle that I really like to speak from in relation to thyroid is how the aromatic amino acids that ultimately end up forming things like our thyroid hormones are subjected to various wavelengths of light. 

For example, in the morning, when we’re getting that early morning sunrise, that is non-negotiable. We need to be experiencing it. We need to be outside, not wearing sunglasses. We need this light coming through our eyes. We need it exposed to our bodies. 

What is happening is the benzene rings in the aromatic amino acids, specific to thyroid, we’re talking about phenylalanine, it’s exposing the UV light, specifically between 250-380nm. Think of it like charging these amino acids to then go through and produce things like T3, T4, even things like our dopamine, epinephrine, norepinephrine, all of these neurochemicals. That exposure to that wavelength of light in the morning has to happen. 

To date, there is nothing that really replicates that. I have been asked to start to create something that replicates it. To date, I don’t know of anything. Why would you? It’s free. Go outside and get your sunlight. Obviously, in areas where it’s dark all the time, that’s where we’d need this. But you cannot replace that. That natural circadian rhythm has to be in place for a proper functioning thyroid and so many other things.

I would also argue getting mid-day sunlight as well. Those longer infrared waves, that is extremely important. I also believe it’s important to be outside as the sun is setting. You get different wavelengths of sun at that point in time.

Not specific to thyroid, but kind of specific to thyroid is the interaction of sunlight to melatonin. Melatonin is created in light but expressed in dark. If you’re having trouble sleeping, and there is a correlation with melatonin and TSH, so there is a connection here to the thyroid. 

If you’re having trouble with melatonin production or sleep, maybe it’s not only the nighttime routine, but the mourning routine, too. Maybe you’re not getting those proper wavelengths of light to generate enough melatonin and other neurochemicals that you need in order to sleep, to heal, to get proper growth hormone pulses that we need throughout life. It’s non-negotiable. 

I didn’t really go through this part of my story, but a big part of my story actually involved me getting pretty sick. I was so run-down, I had no energy, brain fog like crazy. I was running a high-volume practice at the time, which was insurance-based. High stress. I had two young kids. I had a great wife and home. The kids were great, but they’re kids. I was stressed to the max. 

I did all the things I knew to do. All the supplements, diets, and other things. I just couldn’t get away from the stress. My TSH was 25. My thyroid antibodies were off the charts. My medical team was talking about doing biopsies because they thought I may have thyroid cancer. 

When I heard that, I was like, I’m done. I sold everything and moved to Costa Rica. When I was there, I really understood the benefit of natural sunlight and setting this natural circadian rhythm in motion. I didn’t do any supplements or medications. I didn’t do any lasers. I was using the sun. We were naked in the jungle all day, every day. It was amazing. After about the three-month mark of my being there, my lab work was completely normalized. I felt better than I ever have in my entire life. 

There is a non-negotiable of needing to get outside, get proper sun exposure at the right time of day, as much as you can. It’s non-negotiable. 

Dr. Eric: 

Ideally, how long should someone be in the sun? You mentioned first thing in the morning, midday, right before sunset. If someone is only outside for five minutes at a time, it’s better than nothing, I’m sure. From an optimal standpoint, how long should someone try to be outside for? 

Dr. Brandon: 

What we’ve found is if you’re just trying to maintain optimal health, if you go outside while the sun is rising, within the initial one to two hours of sunlight, if you spend 10-15 minutes out there, I like to be moving, so whether you’re taking a walk or stretching or something like that, that’s typically enough to set the proper neurochemistry in motion. 

If you’re struggling from some type of health condition, Hashimoto’s or Graves’ or whatever, I do suggest longer. I suggest at least shooting for 30 minutes. I’ve had some patients stay outside for an hour. The longer, the better. That’s how we’re designed. Especially for that early morning sun exposure, we don’t have to worry about sunburn. We’re much less concerned about that in the early morning.

Midday comes along. I do think it’s important to get outside. I personally think we need to be getting midday sun exposure on our belly, so that would require no shirt. It’s good for the microbiome. There are studies that support this. 

Now we have to be more concerned about things like sunburn. We have this natural mechanism in our skin that starts to alarm us when we are getting too much sun exposure. What you’ll notice is you’ll start getting that tingling, warm feeling, and your skin starts to turn pink. That is your skin saying, “Seek shade.” You have this built-in mechanism. 

That duration of time is so different for everyone. Anything from the darker your skin tone to the lighter your skin tone to your sensitivity to light in general. All of those things are going to determine how long you can safely be in the sun for that period of time. 

Just to confirm: I am talking about sun exposure with no sunglasses and no sunscreen. If you’re putting sunscreen on, you’re destroying the whole purpose of being there. 

For me right now, I have lost my tan or my solar callus, which is what I like to call it. I would only need to be outside midday for 10-20 minutes. If I do that consistently, I will get this nice tan back. Over time, I can spend an hour or two without getting a sunburn. That time will vary for each individual. 

The early morning, I will argue, is probably the most important time to set things in motion. 10-15 minutes to optimize someone who is already healthy. 30+ minutes for someone who is suffering from some type of condition. 

Dr. Eric: 

In the morning, is it important to get full-body exposure, too? 

Dr. Brandon: 

The more, the better. If you are in an urban area, and it’s illegal to be naked outside, let’s not do that. If you can take your shirt off, sit on a porch, the more skin exposure, the better. 

Dr. Eric: 

If someone is in a rainy area, like Seattle or Portland, where they are getting a lot of rain, so you might go a few weeks without sun exposure. Is that where they might want to rely more on the LED lights? 

Dr. Brandon: 

Absolutely. I’ve heard this discussed from multiple angles. I’ve heard it said where you can go outside, and you are still getting good exposure. What you see clinically is it still is not really enough, especially for some people, to change things like Seasonal Affective Disorder, where you see increases in depression or elevations in inflammation. Other things start to occur. I do champion the use of LED or laser. 

I don’t want the take-home message to be “Crawford said go do a tanning bed.” That’s not what I want. But I have had people where they should at least go to a tanning bed. Do something. That person did respond well, and it helped them to come out of their depression. That is a good example. 

I will say still being outside on a cloudy day is better than not being outside. You might need to be outside longer. I will say you need to be outside longer on that cloudy day. The sun is still shining through. 

I’ve played with this myself. There is an app called Light Meter. I think it’s free. I don’t remember. I will use this both indoors and outdoors to measure light intensity because I’m a nerd. I have measured light intensity on a cloudy day versus a sunny day. It really varies. Sometimes, it’s not as affected as you would think. You’re still getting good exposure. I would say to increase your duration. Definitely leverage technology like laser and LED if you do live in those places in my opinion. 

Dr. Eric: 

Getting back to laser therapy and thyroid health. For someone who has Hashimoto’s or Graves’, I know the answer to this will be everybody is different. Can you give a ballpark idea of how many sessions they would need? Would it be a matter of weeks or months that they would need to receive treatment? 

Dr. Brandon: 

You’re right, it does depend. Here is the example I will use. I was working with a lady who had really bad Hashimoto’s and primary hypothyroid. Her antibodies were immeasurable; it just said over 1,000 for both TPO and TG antibodies. We started working through diet and other things. Her antibodies came down to the 500 range, something like that. We kept working. I just couldn’t move the needle. What the heck is going on?

Finally, I started thinking, emotional stressors. Let’s talk about her life. “How is work?” “Great.” “How are kids?” “Great.” “How is your husband?” “I friggin’ hate him.” Whoa! Hit a nerve. I had them start in marital counseling because they had not done that. Literally, as things began to improve in the marriage, the thyroid began to improve as well. 

I say that as an example of everyone is going to have different triggers. For some people, it may be food. For some people, it may chemical, emotional, or infectious. You can use the laser over the thyroid. You’re going to see results. You will see mitigation of the inflammation; antibodies will typically come down rather quickly. I will say that. Usually within the first few applications, they will start to come down. That is also consistent in the literature. 

It’s not like we have to use this for three months to get a small change. You will start to see changes rather quickly in the lab work. To continue to really move the needle, you have to find what triggers that person really is responding to and address those. You’ll see changes in labs pretty dang quickly when you start lasering the thyroid appropriately. 

Dr. Eric: 

Awesome. What other conditions do you commonly use laser and light therapy for? I know TBI (traumatic brain injuries), pain relief, it can benefit. 

Dr. Brandon: 

Absolutely. Our laser is cleared for pain, but it is also cleared to improve blood flow in the body and mitigate inflammation. Clinically, I will use the laser on anything that I’m trying to accelerate and heal. 

We use the laser every single day for TBIs. We’re well-known for TBI of any type, be it anoxic or anything else. We are healing the brain every single day with this laser. Spinal cord injuries respond extremely well. Chronic pain syndrome. The worst types of pain conditions you imagine, we see those on a regular basis and use lasers on them. 

Chronic infectious issues. Post-COVID syndrome. I am beginning to see a lot of post-COVID, whether they can’t smell or still have brain fog or have a pain syndrome. We are using lasers in combination to help that. 

Neurodevelopmental disorders are huge. That’s what my fellowship is in. I am a fellow of the International Board of Functional Neurology with a specialty in childhood neurodevelopmental disorders. We naturally see a lot of autism, ADHD, dyslexia, Tourette’s. I personally also had Tourette’s. I don’t have that anymore. We are using this across the board in some of the most complex neurological conditions. 

But what I will also say is we are beginning to see a huge shift in the mentality of the market. This is in the space of what I’ll call the biohackers. I’m beginning to see some really high-level CEOs, athletes, these types of people who either want to gain an edge or maintain their edge.

I worked with someone here recently who was at the helm of a multi-billion-dollar company. “I’m tired all the time. I have brain fog.” We are working with him in that way. Within two weeks, he said he had a 25% improvement in his ability to function at work. We see the changes in the metrics here in the office. Same thing with athletes. 

That is the cool thing. No matter what you’re doing, photobiomodulation can help. In fact, my wife was getting some work done at her biological dentist. That dentist uses our laser with her patients. That was super cool. This thing can help in so many different ways in so many different demographics. It’s an amazing tool. 

Dr. Eric: 

Wonderful. Can laser therapy be used during pregnancy? Any other concerns or contraindications? 

Dr. Brandon: 

Sure. Since you talk about the thyroid a lot, I think we do need to dispel the myth of the thyroid. So many people think you cannot laser over a thyroid. I will say that’s a myth. I know of 20 different peer-reviewed articles that show you can, and you should. You just need to know what you’re doing when you do it and have some guidance.

Cancer is one of those weird things where you’re going to be told no matter what you’re using, don’t use it over cancerous lesions. I have had some experiences with patients with terminal cancers. They wanted to use photobiomodulation, and we saw very positive effects from it. Especially from a manufacturer’s standpoint, we have to say not to use over cancerous lesions.

The biggest thing that I see and want to tell people about is seizures. Laser therapy can be very powerful when it comes to reducing and eliminating seizure disorders. But like I explained earlier, we don’t want to jump straight to those high-energy photons. There is a step progression of how to do that. I wouldn’t say it’s contraindicated; it just needs to be done properly.

As far as anything else, you mentioned pregnancy. There is not a study, nor do I think anyone is going to donate their pregnant belly for someone to laser over to see how it influences the baby. What I will tell you is I regularly advise pregnant moms to go outside and get proper sun exposure to their belly. That light from the sun is being transmitted into the developing baby, and it does help with growth and development. Good light exposure to the baby is very important. 

Do I laser over it? No, I don’t think I want to take that risk. I don’t advise taking the risk either.

I did do a whole podcast about the development of developmental and neurodevelopmental disorders because of different types of light exposure and what that does to neural crest cell migration, etc. Those are the main concerns.

One thing I will bring up as well. We were literally just writing this into our literature for our laser. I don’t advise people to put the laser directly over clothing when they are using it. The reason is because clothing will absorb those photons. Skin will transmit the photons. Any time I am using the laser, I want it to be over the skin, not clothing. 

The one time that I have seen a patient burned from one of the lasers that we use, he had a long-sleeve black shirt on. It was not in my office, someone else’s. This doctor gave the patient the laser and said, “Hold this here” on his arm and walked away. Patient just literally put it directly on top of the clothing on the arm. The clothing got so hot that that burned the skin. 

Because of that, I have this rule. If we are going to laser you, no clothes. Don’t laser on top of clothes. It doesn’t make sense from a physics perspective anyway. We want a full delivery of those photons. That is what I would call a contraindication, I guess. 

Dr. Eric: 

How about concerns with lasers and the eyes? 

Dr. Brandon: 

Thank you for bringing that up. I don’t know how much time I have, but story on the eyes. Talking about all these things I was diagnosed with, it sounds like I was pretty bad off. I was diagnosed with glaucoma as a kid. Early onset, etc. They said, “You’re probably going to lose your vision someday. We’ll monitor it. We don’t have a solution for you right now.” 

Fast forward. When I was going through college and learning about diet and nutrition, I started taking higher doses of DHEA, Vitamin A, and other things that can promote proper eye and retinal health. That slowed the progression. At that point, the glaucoma did not worsen. 

Then I got into chiro school, started working with Dr. Donofrio. He said, “Laser your eyes.” “I’ll burn my eyeballs. It’s called a scotoma. I don’t want a sunburn on my retina.” He told me to laser my eyes. I came up with this method where I would close my eyes, bring the laser up close. When I started to see red, I knew it was starting to influence the retina. It wasn’t a direct laser beam on my eyeball. I would do that for 30 second increments. I did this pretty regularly. 

For the first time, I went into the ophthalmologist, and it got better. “This is interesting. This is good. We see this sometimes. Don’t get your hopes up.” I continued. It got better again, and again, and again. Now I’m not even diagnosable. 

I did start using both red and infrared in order to do that. I’ve personally had good experience with that. I have neurooptometrists who use our lasers for various eye conditions, like macular degeneration. There is actually now evidence that we should be using red light for macular degeneration. That is in the literature now. It can be used on the eyes. Obviously, we want to be doing this under the guidance of a properly trained physician because you can burn the retina. You don’t want to misuse it. 

One of my pilot studies is looking at how we can very quickly change someone’s brain state by lasering through the eyes, transretinal. The cool thing about the eyes is they are an extension of brain tissue. This is diencephalic tissue. It also does not have a bone between the eye and the brain, so it is a fiber optic for photons, going directly into the brain. 

If I know what type of brain wave I want to put someone into, i.e. I need to increase beta waves, I can use a proper wavelength. I usually use a near infrared like an 808 or 975, and I can laser transretinal for short periods of time and see their brain waves change right before my eyes. I have done this multiple times. 

Is it a relative contraindication to laser the eyes? Yes. However, as literature progresses, we’re actually seeing that laser and light therapy can be huge and effective to treat so many different eye conditions and, like I’m talking about, the brain. Super exciting. 

Dr. Eric: 

All right. That’s great. Glad I brought that up. I think that’s also important, too. Before we wrap things up, I know we could talk another hour about this. Anything else that you felt the need to share? If you wanted to summarize. Or if you wanted to give some advice for someone who may be dealing with a thyroid or autoimmune thyroid condition who may be interested in utilizing laser or light therapy?  

Dr. Brandon: 

Sure. My overarching mission in everything that I do is I want to change global healthcare. A lot of that does involve incorporating things like photobiomodulation into the hospital setting, the private clinic, the dental office. It’s such a safe and effective modality. 

Whether you’re struggling with a thyroid problem, some other type of autoimmune condition, a pain syndrome, or just trying to optimize your neurophysiology, gain an edge, laser and light therapy can be something that may be the missing piece. It can absolutely be supportive in nature of whatever you’re doing. Whether you’re someone wanting to do this on your own, or you’re someone who really needs the guidance of a physician, there are solutions out there. 

If you wanted to engage further and learn more, I’ve got some resources on DrBrandonCrawford.com. That website can point you in various directions. 

I am just here to change global healthcare. I think we’re doing a great job. I think you’re part of that movement with all the great work you’re doing as well. However I can support patients and clinicians, I’m here.

Dr. Eric: 

Awesome. In addition to your website, anywhere else people can find you? Social media? 

Dr. Brandon: 

Social media is really cool because you get to see a lot of patient testimonies. Instagram is where I’m most active, @BCrawfordDC. That is going to be my main social media outlet. 

Of course, I have the NeuroSolution Centers. I have NeuroSolutionATX.com. That’s my office here in Austin. I also have NeuroSolutionATL in Atlanta and NeuroSolutionDXB for my Dubai office. If you go to DrBrandonCrawford.com, that should point you in all the different directions you need to go. 

Dr. Eric: 

Dr. Brandon, thank you so much. This was a great conversation. I expected it to be great, but it was even better than expected. I think you exceeded expectations. Thank you so much for sharing your experience and knowledge with us.  

Dr. Brandon: 

Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me.

Recently, I interviewed Pamela, who has the antibodies for Hashimoto’s and is also dealing with extreme fatigue as well as some digestive issues. We discuss her experience with thyroid hormone replacement, struggles with extreme fatigue, anxiety, and digestive issues, the importance of accurate testing for conditions like SIBO and adrenal health, potential treatment options, the need for a comprehensive approach to managing symptoms, and more. If you would prefer to listen to the interview you can access it by Clicking Here.

Dr. Eric Osansky: 

Welcome to another Save My Thyroid audit. I am chatting here with Pamela, joining me from Ohio with her little doggie, Charlie. Nice to talk with you, Pamela. How are you doing today? 

Pamela: 

Thanks, Dr. O. I’m doing well. 

Dr. Eric: 

Awesome. Pamela here is dealing with the antibodies for Hashimoto’s. Some of the symptoms she has been experiencing, some of her main challenges: fatigue, along with anxiety, PTSD. 

You have also worked with a number of different practitioners. It’s been three functional medicine practitioners? Two or three? 

Pamela: 

It’s been two, and one is a doctor/coach, non-prescriber.

Dr. Eric: 

Can I ask how you found me? 

Pamela: 

I think just because I was watching other thyroid videos, you came up in my feed. Then I went on your newsletter list. 

Dr. Eric: 

How long have you been dealing with those Hashimoto’s antibodies? When were you first diagnosed? 

Pamela: 

My diagnosis was in April of last year. Then I was briefly medicated with T3 only. I had just an awful experience. The doctor kept saying I just needed a higher dose. It got to the point where I wasn’t sleeping or eating. I got a second opinion. 

Dr. Eric: 

Are you no longer taking the T3? 

Pamela: 

No. For me, it was a disaster. You just recently sent out a newsletter about thyroid rage. I had that with the T3. It was just terrible. I almost got fired from my part-time retirement job. It was just awful. I am laughing about it, but it was truly the worst of my life as far as medical. I couldn’t eat. I couldn’t sleep. 

Dr. Eric: 

We were chatting a little bit before, and you said not too long ago, you got a thyroid panel, and your free T3 is looking good. It’s 3.3, which is well within the range. Based on that alone, it seems like at least now, you don’t need any T3, so it sounds like it was a good idea you stopped taking it. 

Pamela: 

I was relieved to see that. I guess I am converting. As long as I keep the nutrition up and stress down, I shouldn’t need medication at this point. I seem to be going the right way. 

Dr. Eric: 

That’s great. Not everybody with antibodies for Hashimoto’s needs to take thyroid hormone replacement. A lot of doctors will just put everybody on it. Your body told you that you didn’t need it. Obviously, your recent blood tests show that, too. Your antibodies are still quite high but are heading in the right direction, correct? 

Pamela: 

Right. I’ve looked at myoinositol and black seed oil. I don’t know if one is considered better than the other or if I just have to experiment with them. 

Dr. Eric: 

You haven’t taken either one of those? 

Pamela: 

No, I haven’t. 

Dr. Eric: 

We could talk about different options with myoinositol. There is some research of how that combined with selenium can potentially help. I actually like black cumin. I can’t say I take it every single day, but I am a fan of black cumin. We will talk about both of those. If I forget, remind me. I want to talk about other things, too, but we will get back to that. 

We mentioned some of the symptoms. How long have you been experiencing fatigue for? 

Pamela: 

That is originally why I went to a functional guy in the first place. I had been treated for hepatitis C. About a year went by, and I was feeling tired and draggy. I didn’t nap every single day. Now I’m napping multiple hours every day and sleeping 7-8 hours a night. Just seems like a lot. 

Dr. Eric: 

7-8 hours a night, most people should be doing that. But the napping during the day.  

Pamela: 

Each month, the Fitbit was telling me it was going up, the percentage of days with naps. I’m up to 65% of my days, I need a multiple-hour nap. 

Dr. Eric: 

Oh wow. A few hours, not just a 20-30-minute power nap. 

Pamela: 

No, hours. I lose the whole afternoon. 

Dr. Eric: 

Wow, okay. Definitely need to talk about that. 

Is the anxiety better since you’re not on the T3, or is that still an issue? 

Pamela: 

It’s much better now that I’m not on the T3. Somewhere along the line, phosphatidylserine was suggested for sleep. It had a terrible effect on me. That stuff kept me awake all night. I recently got a Gaba L-theanine product, and it had a little bit of it in there. The same thing started happening, like the first couple hours of my sleep didn’t even register on the Fitbit. 

Dr. Eric: 

It had the phosphatidylserine supplement in there? 

Pamela: 

Yeah. 

Dr. Eric: 

Have you had your adrenals tested? Saliva testing or dried urine testing? 

Pamela: 

No. He did blood testing that first round last April. 

Dr. Eric: 

Okay. The reason I ask is because typically, phosphatidylserine is given when someone has higher cortisol at night. 

Pamela: 

I have very high cortisol. 

Dr. Eric: 

How do you know you have it at night if you haven’t had it tested? 

Pamela: 

I don’t know about night. The morning one. First, it went down. Between September and I had it tested again in February, I think, it went from the teens, where it was sort of high, to 28. 

Dr. Eric: 

Wow. You’re talking about a morning cortisol blood test at a lab?  

Pamela: 

Yes. I just sent off a 24-hour one because I have a doctor’s appointment coming up. 

Dr. Eric: 

A 24-hour, is it the urine one, where you collected the urine? 

Pamela: 

No, the four-point saliva. 

Dr. Eric: 

Great. It would be interesting. Sometimes, someone will have elevated cortisol in the morning, but at night, it won’t be elevated. That wouldn’t be an indication for the phosphatidylserine. Obviously, there are things you potentially need to do to sleep. You said you sleep 7-8 hours at night. Is it uninterrupted sleep, or do you wake up in the middle of the night and have difficulty falling asleep? 

Pamela: 

The Fitbit says I’m awake a lot. It has little slashes throughout the night. I am on a medication that is supposed to be lowering the cortisol. 

Dr. Eric: 

Do you know the name of the medication? 

Pamela: 

It’s called Clonidine. It used to be called Catapres when it was a blood pressure medication in the ‘80s. I know it from then. 

Dr. Eric: 

How long have you been on that for? 

Pamela: 

Since April of this year. 

Dr. Eric: 

April 2024? 

Pamela: 

Yes. 

Dr. Eric: 

About five months or something like that. Have you noticed that helping with your sleep? 

Pamela: 

Yes. It took a long time for it to kick in. The dosage was increased to .02, and that’s when it really kicked in.  

Dr. Eric: 

When we are talking about adrenals and cortisol, we have to talk about stress. How has stress been? What are you doing from a stress management perspective? 

Pamela: 

I don’t really feel stress. That’s the thing. I had a hectic career, and now I’m retired. I’m gardening and playing with my dog and taking art class. It doesn’t seem like I have stress, but my body seems to think otherwise. 

Dr. Eric: 

It could be other stressors. You mentioned PTSD, so it could be past stressors still affecting the physiology. It could be stealth infections. There could be other factors that affect the adrenals and cortisol, even if you don’t feel stressed. 

I will say when I dealt with Graves’, I knew stress was a factor, and it was a different situation. I wasn’t retired and am still not. At the time, I was in denial. I’m not saying you are, but sometimes we don’t know. That’s why it’s good you’re doing the saliva test, just to see what it looks like. 

Obviously, you did cortisol in the blood. The only thing with the blood is sometimes, going to the lab itself or getting the blood draw can spike up the cortisol. That’s why it’s not completely accurate. It will be interesting to see what the saliva test shows. 

Even if you’re not feeling stressed, you’re retired, it sounds like it’s low stress. If you’re not doing anything to block out time for stress management, it won’t hurt to incorporate deep breathing or something like that. 

Pamela: 

The Fitbit has some mindfulness exercises I do probably three times a week. I do a little bit of yoga and stretching. And I walk. 

Dr. Eric: 

Those are all good. 

Pamela: 

They stopped me from walking for a while. They didn’t want me to do anything that would stress my body in any way. I had to gain weight for one doctor to see me. She told me she wouldn’t see me if I didn’t gain weight. 

Dr. Eric: 

You had the opposite problem that a lot of people have. You were underweight? 

Pamela: 

Right. It’s weird because I really don’t feel any Hashi symptoms, except fatigue. 

Dr. Eric: 

No coldness? 

Pamela: 

I got tested for infections and mold and lots of different stuff. I feel like I have been through the testing machine. 

Dr. Eric: 

How did you get tested for mold? 

Pamela: 

There were plates to put around the house that we sent in. Some swabs in my nose. 

Dr. Eric: 

Those came back negative? 

Pamela: 

All that was negative. This was the only house I looked at where the basement didn’t smell musty. We have sprung leaks, but we’re running the dehumidifier and crossing fingers at this point until we can get somebody out to fix the outside wall. 

Dr. Eric: 

Sounds good. Sometimes, depending on the company you use for the plates, there hopefully was an accurate reading. I’m not saying to do this, but there is urinary testing for mycotoxins that looks at mold in the body to see if you have mold in your body. If that comes up positive, then the question is where is it coming from? If it’s not coming from the house, or is it coming from the house, and you had a potential false negative test with the plates? 

Pamela: 

The H-pylori thing, I think I had to breathe into something. 

Dr. Eric: 

The urea breath test? 

Pamela: 

Then I did a lot of stool testing because I had diarrhea starting with the T3 all the way through March of this year. 

Dr. Eric: 

That stopped when you stopped the T3? 

Pamela: 

No, it kept going. I was down to about three foods that I could eat: coconut, pumpkin, and peanut butter of all things. My weight was really dropping. In that year, probably 30 pounds. 

Dr. Eric: 

You lost 30 pounds? 

Pamela: 

Yes. 

Dr. Eric: 

Did they find out why you were losing weight? Are you gaining the weight back now? 

Pamela: 

No. I am gaining it back now. When I was doing the coaching through the fall, I decided to do an elimination diet with meat. Carbs were the problem; I couldn’t digest them. 

Dr. Eric: 

You went on a carnivore-type diet? 

Pamela: 

I went on a carnivore diet. I had to tweak my digestion a little with HCl and enzymes at first, but I gained weight. I feel pretty good, except I can’t get rid of this tiredness. 

Dr. Eric: 

H-pylori breath test was negative. Did you do a comprehensive stool test, or were they just tests through LabCorps or Quest? 

Pamela: 

No, it was through Mosaic. 

Dr. Eric: 

Mosaic Diagnostics. You did their stool test? 

Pamela: 

Yeah. The report was five pages long. 

Dr. Eric: 

It looked okay? 

Pamela: 

It looked okay. Some leaky gut stuff at the time, last fall. I just kept doing those supplements and following the advice on that. My digestion is pretty good. For a while, I could see fat in my stool, undigested fat. That has completely stopped. I think it’s a #4 on the chart, which is normal. What I would call normal poop. That seems to be resolved. Every once in a while, I get diarrhea. Somebody suggested that I take Vitamin A after a fatty meal, and that seems to stop it. 

Dr. Eric: 

Your gut is better. Maybe not optimal, but it’s improved.  

Pamela: 

Much improved. 

Dr. Eric: 

Still experiencing the fatigue. Adrenals, which we spoke about. You’re doing testing on that. Nutrient deficiencies. Have you done an iron panel recently? Not just a CBC. 

Pamela: 

Not recently, no. Back at the beginning, he did iron and ferritin. 

Dr. Eric: 

You actually sent those, too. 

Pamela: 

There was a ferritin in what I sent you. 

Dr. Eric: 

I think there was also iron. Maybe I’m wrong. There was ferritin. Ferritin didn’t look too bad; it was 62. Maybe there wasn’t iron, just ferritin. It did have iron saturation. This was from last year, September 2023. The iron saturation was 18%. Ideally, you want it to be between 30-40%. 18% is still within the lab range, which is 15-55. Definitely on the lower end. A lot of times, the medical doctors will blow it off because it’s within range. Same thing with the iron. It was 66 when you really want it to be 90-100. 

If your iron is low, the questions you want to ask is are you consuming enough iron? If you are eating mostly a meat-based diet, the answer would be yes. You’re not cycling; you’re post-menopause, so you’re not a cycling woman. That is not the issue. Then we’d look at digestion, the gut. Are you digesting everything, absorbing everything? 

The stool test, I will say this. I like Mosaic Diagnostics for some of their testing, like their organic acids test. The urinary mycotoxins test, they have a good one. I can’t say I love their stool test. On a scale of 1-10, it’s not a 1, but it’s definitely not a 10; it’s somewhere in the middle. It sounds like it still showed some things. It wasn’t a perfect test. 

Pamela: 

It had some gram-negative bacteria. 

Dr. Eric: 

I also think about things like SIBO or SIFO. A stool test would not detect that. Just because you mentioned the weight loss. You were taking the T3, but you said even after T3, you were experiencing weight loss and some diarrhea. It wasn’t just related to T3. 

SIBO in some people, not everybody, will cause weight loss, but it could cause diarrhea or constipation, sometimes alternating. A lot of people do have symptoms with SIBO, but not everybody. It’s very common to have bloating and gas. Especially when eating foods that are higher in FODMAPs, like carbohydrates, which you cut out. You’re eating more meat, so it makes me think that it might be something to look into in the future. 

Pamela: 

I did two rounds of antimicrobials in the fall. I started right after this testing, and then I did another round in December. 

Dr. Eric: 

Which one did you take? Do you remember? 

Pamela: 

Designs for Health. 

Dr. Eric: 

Probably their GI Microb-X? 

Pamela: 

Microbial, yeah. 

Dr. Eric: 

I’m not saying that wouldn’t help at all, but SIBO can be challenging. Sometimes, the broad-spectrum antimicrobials don’t work for SIBO but could work for other things in the gut. Like I said, something to consider. 

If things are not improving, and if you already have been through the medical route, going to gastroenterologists, and they do their endoscopies, a colonoscopy in this case, wouldn’t show anything. Again, that is usually what they’ll do. The H-pylori you had done. 

If you are still not getting answers, even though it’s heading in the right direction, and you feel you can’t introduce these other foods, and you are just relying on a meat-based diet, that is at least something to consider. Maybe there is some overgrowth in the small intestine. 

There is a breath test you could do. Mosaic Diagnostics doesn’t offer that, but there are other companies like Genovva and a few others that have the breath test for SIBO. Definitely something to look into. 

Let’s see what the adrenals look like. A lot of things can cause fatigue. The stealth infections like Lyme, bartonella can cause that. EBV. Some of these tests for Lyme and bartonella, the tick-borne infections aren’t too accurate. If you look at Lyme at a LabCorps or Quest, many times it will be negative, even if someone has it. I’m not saying you have it. I’m just saying that some labs are more reliable than others. 

In your situation, I would say since you already did the adrenal saliva test, which is a test I like, you might as well wait and see what that shows. If that isn’t giving all the answers, then it sounds like the gut still has some work to do potentially. If you are still having diarrhea, then I would look maybe at doing a SIBO breath test. You could also look at maybe doing a retest of the stool test, perhaps using another lab, like doing a GI Map or Genovva GI Effects or other labs that I like. 

Like I said, based on what you said, if I had to choose between doing a SIBO test or another comprehensive stool test, I would lean more toward using a SIBO breath test and see what that shows.

Before wrapping it up, you asked me about the myoinositol and the black cumin. I told you I would get back to those. For what you’re experiencing, I don’t think those will be magic solutions to your fatigue. I think you’d have to go beyond those. 

There are some studies that show myoinositol and selenium can be beneficial in those with Hashimoto’s, moreso the immune system. To be honest, even someone with Graves’ could take selenium. Even the myoinositol, it seems like it has immune modulating properties. 

Same with black cumin. Even though there are no studies on black cumin with hyperthyroidism, and there are one or two related to hypothyroidism, it seems like it’s not directly affecting the thyroid, but the immune system, which is good because that is what you are dealing with with the elevated TPO antibodies. It might help. 

I think you will need to go beyond that. The saliva testing that you’re doing, maybe do some initial testing with the gut that we spoke about. It shouldn’t hurt to take those. Just taking those alone is probably not going to be the answer. 

Selenium by itself in the research has been shown to lower TPO antibodies. Do you absolutely need to take the myoinositol with the selenium? It’s something we don’t know unless someone tries it out. Some people might take both in combination and see a dramatic decrease in their antibodies. Others, maybe not so much. 

Same thing with black cumin. Like I said, I like black cumin. It has a number of different health benefits. I have written at least one if not multiple articles on black cumin. It can help with COVID. I’m a fan of black cumin. It’s not that I am not a fan of myoinositol. One might be beneficial to some extent. 

I think you also might need to do additional testing. You already did one of them that I would recommend, the saliva test. 

That is where I would go. Let’s wait for the results of the saliva test and see what that shows. If there are a lot of imbalances in cortisol levels, and you do things to address those, and that helps, that’s great. If not, if you’re still experiencing fatigue, diarrhea, or other symptoms, you might need to dig even deeper. Maybe do the SIBO breath test that I mentioned earlier. 

Pamela: 

Okay. That’s great. Very helpful. 

Dr. Eric: 

Pamela, thank you so much again for applying to do this audit. It was great having this conversation. I hope everyone also benefited from listening to this conversation. Tune into the next episode. 

Pamela: 

Thanks so much. 

I decided to create a series of episodes covering the different factors that can help you lower and eventually normalize your thyroid antibodies. In today’s sixth and final part of my series, I’m discussing the crucial link between gut health and thyroid antibodies. I’m talking about how the gut impacts autoimmune thyroid conditions, the concept of leaky gut, the 5R protocol for gut healing, strategies for supporting gut health, my approach to testing, and more. If you would prefer to listen to this part, you can access it by Clicking Here.

There are a few reasons why healing the gut is essential to lower and eventually normalize the thyroid antibodies associated with Graves’ and Hashimoto’s.

First of all, most of the immune system cells are located in the gut. As a result, you really do need to have a healthy gut in order to have a healthy immune system.

I have also mentioned in other episodes the triad of autoimmunity. Remember, it involves three components necessary for autoimmunity to develop. Component #1 is a genetic predisposition. Second is an exposure to one or more environmental triggers. The third one is an increase in intestinal permeability, also known as leaky gut.

That leaky gut is necessary for autoimmunity to develop. Healing the leaky gut is also necessary to reverse autoimmunity and therefore lower those antibodies, eventually normalizing them.

Let me briefly explain what a leaky gut is. You have these tight junctions, which connect adjacent cells of the small intestine and prevent larger molecules from passing through. What I like to do is use my hand and show my fingers. Think of my fingers as the cells of the small intestine. You have these tight junctions in between the fingers/cells of the small intestine, holding them together. When you have that leaky gut, you have damage to the tight junctions. If you open up those fingers or have the spaces in between the small intestine become larger, this allows proteins and other larger molecules to pass into the bloodstream, which causes an immune system response.

What causes a leaky gut? There are a number of factors. This leads us into a discussion of the 5R protocol. This discusses the different things you need to do to heal the gut.

The first component also relates to some of the causes of the leaky gut. That very first component is Remove. You want to remove those factors that can cause a leaky gut.

Food is one of the factors. I have an episode in this series dedicated to food triggers, such as gluten, corn, others.

Certain infections can also cause a leaky gut. I have an episode in this podcast series on lowering and normalizing thyroid antibodies that talks about infections. Not all infections cause a leaky gut. In that episode, not every infection I discuss will cause a leaky gut. Ones that are specific to the gut can cause a leaky gut.

Not necessarily infections, but SIBO or yeast overgrowth also could be a factor.

Certain environmental toxins. I have an episode on environmental toxins when it comes to lowering and normalizing antibodies. It doesn’t mean every single environmental toxin will cause a leaky gut. One that potentially can is glyphosate.

Glyphosate, to be honest, I don’t know if there is evidence of it directing a leaky gut. It definitely seems to cause dysbiosis, an imbalance in the gut flora. That seems to go hand in hand with the leaky gut. You could have imbalance in the gut flora without having a leaky gut. Many times, when you have that imbalance, you have a leaky gut.

Medications like antibiotics, proton pump inhibitors, even antithyroid medication such as methimazole or PTU. There is a time and place for medications, including antithyroid medication. They can not only cause that dysbiosis, but there is some evidence that shows they can affect the intestinal barrier, those tight junctions.

It is important to understand you can have a leaky gut without experiencing any symptoms. If you are having symptoms such as bloating, gas, stomach pain, you could have other things going on such as parasites, H-pylori. H-pylori will typically cause heartburn and reflux, but you also might not have symptoms. The point is, you can have a leaky gut in the absence of digestive symptoms.

That’s the first R of the 5R protocol. Some of those factors can be a cause of a leaky gut, so you want to remove those factors.

The second R is Replace. You might need to replace things like digestive enzymes. A lot of people have low stomach acid. Maybe taking something like butane HCl or some bitter herbs, those are some examples of things that you might have to replace. Even dietary fiber falls under that replace component.

The third R is is Reinoculate. You want to reinoculate the good flora with probiotics, prebiotics. The question you might have is should I do this through food? Should I do this through supplementation? You definitely want to do as much as you can through food. If you enjoy eating fermented foods for example, and you are able to tolerate fermented foods such as sauerkraut and fermented pickles, then by all means, eat these foods.

Prebiotics, eat plenty of foods that are high in fiber, and that will provide prebiotics. For example, if you are eating green, leafy vegetables, which I do add to my smoothie, they are not the best source of dietary fiber. They are not high in prebiotics. Other types of vegetables like cruciferous vegetables are high in fiber.

Some people might not be able to tolerate cruciferous vegetables, especially if they have something like SIBO. You just have to listen to your body. Same thing with fermented foods. It could also be histamine intolerance.

Definitely try to do as much as you can through diet. That being said, I do like supplements. I have been taking a probiotic supplement for quite some time. I would recommend if you take a probiotic, take one that has a decent potency, at least 25-30 billion CFU, colony forming units.

Also, make sure it lists multiple strains, not just a species. An example of this is Lactobacillus acidophilus, which is a species. Lactobacillus acidophilous LA-14 is a specific strain. You could look at the label, and if you see the species name, usually with the strain, you will see a letter/number combo. It might just be numbers or extra letters. You definitely want to list a strain and not just a species.

When I dealt with Graves’ in 2008/2009, I did not add extra prebiotics. I tried to get what I could through diet. For the last six or seven years, I have been adding prebiotics to my smoothie. The ones I get are inexpensive, especially compared to probiotics. They are providing some extra prebiotics. I try to get as many prebiotics as I can from food as well.

The fourth R is Repair. You want to do things to repair your gut. A lot of people just jump right into repair. They will do things like drink bone broth or take supplements such as L-glutamine or other gut healing supplements. If you’re a vegan/vegetarian, and you are not going to drink bone broth, cabbage juice is an option also to help to heal the gut.

Again, you need to address the first three R’s. Don’t necessarily need to do these in order. You could remove, replace, reinoculate, and at the same time, repair. If you just jump to repair, and are drinking bone broth or taking a gut healing supplement like my SMT GI Restore, which is a great supplement, but if that’s all you’re doing, and you’re not doing things to address the cause of the leaky gut, replace, and reinoculate, you won’t be successful in healing the gut.

Repair is important, but a lot of people jump right into that. They don’t address the other ones. They might take probiotics. I see a lot of people when they work with me who are already taking a probiotic, a digestive enzyme, and maybe drinking bone broth. They haven’t done as much as they could to address that first R, remove.

The fifth R is Rebalance. Rebalance the parasympathetic nervous system. You could do this through mind/body medicine. Vagus nerve exercises. With mind/body medicine, meditation, yoga, even deep breathing. When you talk about Vagus nerve exercises, singing loud, either in the shower or in your car or wherever. Vigorous gargling also stimulates the Vagus nerve. Taking cold showers as well, which is something I do.

Those are the five components of the 5R protocol. This is necessary for optimal gut health. Some people will say you need to go beyond the 5R protocol in some cases. Maybe, but you always need to incorporate the 5R protocol. I’m not saying that in every case, if you just incorporate the 5R protocol, that alone is going to heal the gut. Many times, it will. If you try to do other things and not incorporate the components of the 5R protocol, you won’t be successful in healing the gut.

I also want you to be aware of childhood factors that could impact the gut. For example, C section versus a natural birth.

Being bottle-fed, which was the case with me. I was never breastfed. If you’re breastfed, that has beneficial impact on the gut microbiota.

Antibiotic use when younger. I took a lot of antibiotics when I was younger, which definitely wasn’t beneficial to my gut microbiome.

Proton pump inhibitors. I don’t know the statistics with children, but you’d be surprised how many children take acid blockers. A lot of children aren’t eating well, so a lot of it does come down to diet. If they have symptoms, many times, the practitioner won’t look to make recommendations- I would hope a natural healthcare practitioner would be making dietary recommendations, but going to a conventional medical doctor or nurse practitioner, some of them are open-minded, but not all of them. They might just recommend some medication, which can have a negative impact on the gut.

There is a time and place for antibiotics. When I was growing up, I’m sure some of the antibiotics I took maybe were necessary, but definitely not all of them. That’s a big problem, not just with children, but adults as well, taking too many medications overall, not just antibiotics.

Should you test the gut microbiome? I think it depends on the person. There are natural healthcare practitioners who will test everybody’s gut microbiome. I won’t say that’s a big thing. Doing functional medicine testing isn’t cheap. Everything adds up. To me, it’s a matter of prioritizing. There are practitioners who will recommend leaky gut testing for everyone. There are practitioners who will recommend a comprehensive stool panel for everyone. That’s just their approach. I am not saying anything negative.

With regard to leaky gut testing, at one point, I tested everybody for a leaky gut. I would do usually the Array #2 from Cyrex Labs. That’s their intestinal permeability test, which is a blood test. You could do zonulin in the stool, which is not a perfect marker. Lactulose mannitol test is a more classic test, which is not perfect. Even Array #2 is pretty good, but I’m sure not perfect. No test is perfect.

I will say that most people tested positive for a leaky gut, which made sense. I do work with some people with non-autoimmune thyroid conditions, but most of my patients have Graves’ or Hashimoto’s. According to the triad of autoimmunity, you’d think they would have a leaky gut. Most people did.

What I decided to do is stop doing it. It’s great for the person to see they have a leaky gut, but it’s a couple hundred dollars for the test. Why don’t they spend that money elsewhere, and we will assume they have a leaky gut?

The one upside to doing leaky gut testing upfront is if it’s positive, later on, you can retest and see if it improves, which it hopefully will. Now you could still do a leaky gut test later, even if you don’t do an initial test. You wouldn’t know if it’s positive to begin with.

I will say that most people test positive for a leaky gut. If they were negative for a leaky gut, I would question whether it was a true negative or a false negative. I just make the assumption that people have a leaky gut. A lot of practitioners take this approach as well.

There are other types of tests, like comprehensive stool panels. GI Map by Diagnostic Solutions and GI Effects by Genovva Diagnostics are two of the most well-known tests. There is a newer one from Doctor’s Data.

I like the GI Map and GI Effects. Those are my two favorite tests. I don’t recommend these tests to everybody. There are some practitioners who do. They’re expensive tests. That’s not the reason I won’t recommend it. If I think someone needs a test, I will recommend it.

The challenge is sometimes you don’t know. You can’t always go by symptom. You can use that for justification that everyone should get a comprehensive stool panel for example.

When I dealt with Graves’, I didn’t get a comprehensive stool panel or a leaky gut test or any gut-related tests. I did an adrenal saliva test, which did look at a marker called secretory IGA, which lines the mucosal surfaces of the gut. Mine was depressed, so I did have that test. I didn’t have any specific gut testing like a leaky gut test or a stool panel. I did find I was able to get into remission, and I have taken that approach with a lot of people.

If someone has obvious digestive symptoms, then I will usually recommend some type of gut test, whether it’s a comprehensive stool test or a SIBO breath test. Maybe doing an organic acids test, which is really good for looking at yeast overgrowth.

I will do some testing. Many times, I will give an option. I will list a comprehensive stool panel as an optional test, and someone might choose to do it. If someone doesn’t choose to do it, yes, there is always a chance they might need to do it later on. That’s why I also give it as an option. To force everybody to spend $300+ on a comprehensive stool test for example when many of these people won’t need it, I don’t feel comfortable doing that. If someone absolutely wants to do it, or if I feel like they need to do it, then I will give that recommendation.

You can’t always go by symptom. Sometimes, I won’t recommend it. The person might not be progressing or might hit a roadblock, and we recommend it later on. Would have been great if they did it initially. Like I said, that’s my approach, where I don’t recommend it to every single person.

If you’re listening to this and in the future decide to work with me, keep in mind, it’s up to you. You can do it. I will usually list it as an option when I send my follow-up recommendations.

There are also tests looking at the diversity of the gut microbiome. A GI Map or GI Effects looks at some of the good flora of the body, but its main focus is looking for pathogens and opportunistic bacteria, things like H-pylori. Even with the GI Effects, that’s an add-on. Parasites; certain opportunistic bacteria like Streptococcus, Staphylococcus, Klebsiella, Pseudomonas. It also looks at markers related to digestion like pancreatic elastase; secretory IgA; calprotectin. I do find the test to be valuable, even though I don’t do it on everybody.

The stool tests that look at diversity, they’re focusing on the number of different microorganisms. You want to make sure that they’re in good amounts, that they’re not too high or low. A comprehensive stool panel is called “comprehensive” because it looks at lots of things.

If you are just looking at the diversity, Viome is not my favorite, but that test is looking at the diversity. They are not looking at things like H-pylori or parasites. It’s not that I dislike Viome; it’s just that they give recommendations based on AI. It’s still not perfected. Nothing bad about Viome.

The information on the diversity is accurate, but when they give recommendations on foods you should eat and not eat based on your gut microbiome and some other information, I’m not sure it’s accurate. This is also based on what they have said, listening to some of their webinars, admitting they are still using a lot of AI to come up with those recommendations.

Next question you might have is how do you know if the gut has been healed? This is a very common question that I get asked. There are a few different ways. One is if you did that initial leaky gut test, then you could do a retest and see if it’s been healed.

Even if you didn’t do a leaky gut test, let’s say you made that assumption that someone had a leaky gut. You could still do a leaky gut test later on and see what that shows. If it’s positive, that person’s gut has not been healed. If it’s negative, assuming you believe in the results, false negatives are possible.

When I dealt with Graves’, I did secretory IgA on the saliva test, which was really low, less than detectable. Eventually, I retested. The first time I retested, it still remained undetectable. Then I made some changes to my diet. At the time, I was eating paleo because there was no AIP diet back in 2008-2009. When I retested after avoiding nuts for a few months, my secretory IgA was normal. I am not 100% sure, but I was pretty sure it was due to the nuts because that was the only change I made.

Let’s say you have Graves’ or Hashimoto’s, and your thyroid hormones are in balance. Your antibodies are normal. You’re not experiencing gut symptoms. When you get to this point, maybe you didn’t have gut symptoms to begin with, but you had elevated thyroid antibodies associated with Graves’ or Hashimoto’s or both. Either way, if everything seems to be in balance, and if you were experiencing gut symptoms but no longer are, you could definitely do that.

That’s what I used. I did look at secretory IgA in saliva. It’s not like I absolutely did no testing. As I mentioned earlier, I didn’t do a comprehensive stool test or a specific leaky gut test. When secretory IgA is low, that usually correlates with a leaky gut, but it’s not a specific leaky gut test.

Hopefully, you enjoyed this presentation on lowering thyroid antibodies by healing the gut. I also hope you enjoyed the entire series on how to lower and normalize thyroid antibodies. Just remember that it’s not always easy to lower and normalize thyroid antibodies, but it is very possible.

Thanks again for tuning in. I look forward to catching you in the next episode.