Recently I interviewed Margie Bissinger, as we chatted about bone density and thyroid health, and below is the written transcript. If you would prefer to listen the interview you can access it by Clicking Here.

Dr. Eric Osansky: With us, we have Margie Bissinger. We are going to be talking about healthy bones, how to improve bone health. As usual, I am going to dive into Margie’s bio. Margie Bissinger is a physical therapist, integrative health coach, and happiness trainer. Margie has over 25 years’ experience helping people with osteoporosis and osteopenia improve their bone health. Margie is the author of Osteoporosis: An Exercise Guide. She oversees all of the osteoporosis initiatives in the state of New Jersey as a representative to the New Jersey Interagency Council on Osteoporosis. Margie also teaches an online six-week program, “Happy Bones, Happy Life” to give people the tools to naturally achieve optimal bone health. Margie is the host of the Happy Bones, Happy Life podcast and the“Natural Approaches to Osteoporosis and Bone Health Summit.” Thank you so much for joining us, Margie.

Margie Bissinger: Thank you so much for inviting me. I’m so happy to be here.

Dr. Eric: Same here. Glad that you could join us. Why don’t we start out by giving your background? How did you start helping people to improve their bone health, to have happy bones and a happy life?

Margie: It was really interesting because I’m a physical therapist. My area of expertise is orthopedics, working with people with back pain, neck pain, head and neck TMJ. Then I moved from Chicago to New Jersey. I was working in my own private practice as a physical therapist, and a group of doctors asked me if I would see their patients with osteoporosis. This was way back. There wasn’t even a lot at that point in time. I said, “Sure.” I was absolutely mortified by what I saw. I was so upset because well-intentioned individuals, the doctors said they had to exercise, but they didn’t have guidance. They didn’t know where to go, or they didn’t get specifics. They had no idea. They found exercises through books or magazines or their trainer, and they were doing exercises that increased their risk of fractures.

At that point, I got really involved at the state level, the national level. That’s when I wrote my book. I need to get involved here because people need guidance. That is what got me started.

Fast forward, I had a son who had diabetes. I saw how food played such an important role in his condition. That is when I went back to school to study nutrition and became a health coach. I have always taught my patients happiness. There is a real correlation between happiness and chronic pain. The same thing with osteoporosis. That is how I got to do what I do.

Dr. Eric: Why don’t we jump into some of the common causes of osteopenia and osteoporosis?

Margie: For women especially, it’s menopause and the reduction in estrogen. As people age, they lose bone density. People think this is an older person’s issue. It’s really every age because the more bone we have—it’s like a bank as a kid—the more we can draw on later. There are lots of root causes. You’re big into this. All sorts of things. If there are certain medications, malabsorption, any problems with the gut, people aren’t getting their nutrients. They can have micronutrient deficiency. That’s a big one that I see.

Also, in terms of environmental toxins, stress, inflammation. When people have inflammation chronically, it’s going to affect their bones. This is something missed. There are so many underlying root causes. People are treated with a Band-Aid and not looking at these underlying causes that need to be dealt with in terms of a person getting better, really improving their bones and overall health. Also, people who are inactive. That is so common today, where people are sitting a lot. Certain medications. Thyroid, too. That’s your area.

Dr. Eric: We’ll definitely talk about the thyroid. How about medications? What are some of the common medications? PPIs are one of them.

Margie: That’s a big one. So many people are on PPIs, proton pump inhibitors. That’s the Nexium, Tums, anything blocking the acid. There are studies that show that people who are on these medications that block the acid actually have a significant increased risk of fractures and osteoporosis. There is a big correlation. We need that stomach acid. So many people are on that. It was never meant to be long-term. People need to know about this. If they are on these, don’t just get off them; work with your healthcare provider. But there are alternatives.

Even if you had to be on an acid-blocking medication, which some people do for ulcers, there are different ones such as the Tagamet and the Pepsid that don’t affect the bones. PPIs are a big reason. So many people are on them. People know about this.

The one that is so interesting, and people don’t know about, are anti-depressants. It’s not something the doctor will typically say, “I’m putting you on this anti-depressant. Just so you know, one of the side effects is reduced bone density and increased fracture risk.” It’s not usually talked about. The SSRIs, anything dealing with the serotonin, is going to affect bone density. They have done studies on that. That is really important to know. A lot of people are put on them, and they feel better, so they stay on them. That can significantly reduce their bone density and increase their risk of fractures and osteoporosis. That’s a big one.

Another category is any of the steroids, like corticosteroids that people are on, for asthma, inflammation, different things. Even a shorter-term dose of that can affect your bones. For cancer treatments, the aromatase inhibitors as well. There are more categories.

We can talk about thyroid. What happens in the bone is there are two things going on. It’s like build and repair. The bone we have doesn’t just stay there. What our body does to keep our bone nice and healthy is it gets rid of old bone and adds new bone. It throws away the old bone and builds new bone. What happens when there is too much thyroid hormone, or hyperthyroidism as you all know, is that it overdoes it. It gets rid of the osteoclasts; those are the breakdown cells. There are too many breakdown cells, so it offsets the balance. We’re breaking down most bone than we’re building up. That is a big one where if it’s not managed correctly, this can really affect bone health. Even if people have hypothyroidism, and they are taking too much of the medication as well, that can affect your bone, too.

Dr. Eric: Good points. With hyperthyroidism, that can affect bone density. What you’re also saying is if someone has hypothyroidism/Hashimoto’s, and they are taking thyroid hormone replacement, whether it’s levothyroxine or dessicated thyroid, that can also have a negative impact on bone density.

Margie: If your thyroid hormones aren’t balanced, if you have Hashimoto’s, first of all, the inflammation itself, the autoimmunity can be affecting your bones just like it can affect so many different things. Also, you need the right amount of thyroid hormone for building bone as well. Both areas can be affecting bone.

Dr. Eric: I have written some articles in the past where thyroid hormone is important when it comes to bone quality. If you don’t have a sufficient amount of thyroid hormone, that can decrease bone quality, and over time, can increase the susceptibility of fracture.

Margie: That’s a good point you brought up. A lot of people get the bone density test. It just has a number. That number has nothing. It just says how much bone is there. It’s quantity. It has nothing to do with quality. That’s so important because you can have two people with the exact same bone density, but one could fall and not fracture, and one is like chalk with them. That matters so much. That’s such a good point you brought up.

There is a test called the Trabecular Bone Scoring (TBS). It’s software added to the bone density that some places have now that can give you more information on your bone quality as well as the bone density.

Dr. Eric: What type of test is that?

Margie: TBS, Trabecular Bone Score. Not that many places have it unfortunately. A lot of doctors don’t order it, and it may not be covered by insurance. It’s just software that when you get your regular bone density, and it’s incredibly helpful information. Not only does it give you the density, but the quality, which is so important. It’s something that is often not thought about, but it will make the difference if you fracture or not. That’s huge in terms of your bone health.

Dr. Eric: It’s not an actual scan then, from what I understand.

Margie: It’s software that goes on the regular bone density. They can even take if the place has it. They can look at a bone density. You can’t mix places unfortunately. That’s an issue. The test is not that accurate. You can’t take the findings of one center and bring it to another. You have to stay at the same place. Sometimes you have to balance out what’s more important. Usually it’s staying at the same place. For anyone getting it for the first time, just check with your center. I’m a big believer in this test. It gives you additional information.

Dr. Eric: Good to know. How about stress? What impact does stress have on bone density?

Margie: I’m so glad you asked this question. People come to see me, and they are so worried if they are doing the right exercises. Are they eating the right foods? They don’t realize that the stress itself is such a problem. Stress is your body’s own steroid. Cortisol is your body’s steroid. It does the same thing as being on steroids. There have been studies done on both animals and humans that show that increased cortisol reduces bone density. It really makes a difference.

Every single person I work with, I really teach them life is stressful, so you can’t just say to get rid of stress. Doesn’t happen. But you can learn techniques so that you’re more resilient, and the stress isn’t going to topple you over. That’s my favorite thing I do. I teach people to reduce stress as well as increase happiness, which they have shown that people who are content with life and are happier have increased bone density. It all goes together.

I look at osteoporosis as an opportunity. People find out. It’s not something that you feel oftentimes. You’re 50, you get a bone density, and you’re like, “Oh no. I have osteoporosis.” You conjure up these images of your life is ruined. You can’t enjoy all the activities you did: playing with your grandchildren, etc. It’s very scary. I look at it as an opportunity to examine your life. What is missing? For example, stress. Am I a stressed-out person? Where can I improve upon it? Am I a couch potato? When you do all these things that help the bones, your whole life gets better. You’re in your 80s, and you’re lifting things. You have never felt better in your life. That’s how I look at it. Look at it as an opportunity to see where you may have issues that you need to deal with.

The bones aren’t in isolation. I know that’s something you practice as well. One part of the body,it all goes together. When something is wrong with the bones, usually there are other areas as well.

Stress is so important. I just think it’s something that every person needs to stop and see where they are at. I’ve always been a happy person, but physical therapy, you can get really busy. I remember working like crazy, shoving my lunch down. One day, I decided to take a meditation program for eight weeks. I did this Jon Kabat-Zinn program. The first class, we didn’t do much. The second class, I got a speeding ticket on the way to meditation. That was the best thing that happened. It hit me in the head that I was not practicing what I preached. Since that day, around 11 years ago, I made these practices such an important part of my life. It’s completely changed everything. I can’t say enough about how it’s helped me personally as well as everybody I work with. Very big thing.

Dr. Eric: Another reason why people should incorporate some type of mind body medicine or something else to manage stress. There is only so much we can do about the actual stressors. When it comes to stress management, there is definitely a lot we can do.

Margie: Absolutely. The benefits, I’m sure you’ve seen this as well in terms of health. I just can’t get over it actually, how big a role this plays. It also helps your digestion. The body thinks you are running from a tiger, and it shuts down digestion. If digestion is shut down, we are not absorbing our nutrients. We may be eating properly. All sorts of things with reducing our stress and learning the mind/body techniques are so helpful.

Dr. Eric: How about the gut microbiome, and how it impacts bone density?

Margie: Yes, they have done research on that. The composition of the gut microbiome, new research is coming out about how it can affect your bone density. As everybody knows, the gut can be the root of everything, especially when it comes to your bones. It’s one of the first things I have people work on. Oftentimes, people will just say, “I see your bone density. Let’s go on a medication,” not realizing this person has major issues. It’s good to have it evaluated, see what you can do to improve. Eat as best you can. Your prebiotics, your postbiotics. Do things to help the gut microbiome. Get it evaluated too. There are people who have issues, and that will definitely affect your bones.

In terms of the other thing with the gut that I find, the biggest thing that I see in my practice is food sensitivities. One that I see time and time again is gluten. It plays such a role. I can’t even tell you how many people have gotten off gluten and really improved their bone density and bones. Most doctors who deal with osteoporosis, the endocrinologist will test for Celiac Disease. They don’t go any further. That’s a real problem. Celiac Disease affects a small portion. Anyone who has non-Celiac gluten sensitivity or problems with gluten can also have significant inflammation and significant problems with their bones because they are not getting the nutrients. It’s not something that is routinely done. I think everybody should be tested for that personally as well. It’s very common, and it’ssomething that needs to be evaluated in the whole scheme of looking at why you might be losing bone.

Dr. Eric: That’s interesting, too. How about the dairy controversy? Like gluten, some people will say to avoid dairy because it’s inflammatory. There are others who say when it comes to bone health, you need to have dairy to have healthy bones. Can you talk about dairy and other foods that you would recommend that might be able to help with bone density?

Margie: That’s such a good question. It’s true. You will watch television. Years ago, they had the milk moustache. That’s what people are told. “Drink your milk. You will have strong bones.” That’s not what’s been found. The countries that have the most dairy do not have lower incidents of osteoporosis. There is not a correlation with increasing your dairy and osteoporosis at all. For so many people, dairy is inflammatory. That’s not what you want to do. You certainly don’t want to increase your inflammation. That is not what I tell people. A lot of people who can’t tolerate dairy, myself included. I eat very little dairy, if any. Some people can tolerate healthy dairy, like organic and pasteurized. Other people who can’t, there are lots of other ways to get your calcium.

I am a big believer in the leafy greens. Some of the ones that people don’t know about are collard greens. You can use that as a wrap. They have 250 mg of calcium per cup. Kale. Bok choy are some good ones. A lot of people think spinach is a good green. Spinach has oxalic acid, so you are not going to be getting the calcium from it. Not that you can’t have it, but don’t use that. Sardines are a great way to get calcium. Chia seeds. There are ways to get calcium outside of dairy. Don’t increase your dairy at all. I don’t believe in that. A lot of people need to appreciate how inflammatory dairy is. It’s one of the things I also often have people either eliminate or test for because it can be an issue as well. We certainly want to get rid of anything that causes inflammation.

Dr. Eric: Is broccoli also high in calcium?

Margie: Broccoli is good. It’s not huge, but it certainly is a very good thing to take, yeah.

Dr. Eric: You mentioned inflammation, which is huge because it’s not just the foods. We mentioned stress, which can lead to inflammation, a pro-inflammatory response. There are so many things that can cause inflammation. As a healthcare practitioner, a health coach, physical therapist, that is not just diet, not just stress management, but there are other things you look into to try to reduce inflammation.

Margie: Absolutely. There is a major workup when it comes to osteoporosis. I believe it’s so important. As I said before, it’s like putting a Band-Aid on it. I like to see in the bloodwork the homocysteine level and the C-reactive protein. That is just in the regular lab work. It can be ordered by any doctor. It’s not anything special when you get your bloodwork. It gives tremendous information.

A lot of people don’t know. Even just today, this morning, I spoke to someone who got diagnosed with very low bone density. Her numbers were awful in terms of her homocysteine and C-reactive protein. She didn’t realize; she doesn’t know. They are trying to figure out what could be causing it. That’s very important to see. Is there underlying inflammation? It can be for many reasons. It can be infection, food sensitivities. That’s why I’m such a big believer in working with a functional medicine or integrative or someone like you, working with someone who deals with this so you can delve in and see.

Osteoporosis, unlike some other things, let’s say you come in with eczema, or your stomach is hurting. You will know if you are getting better. With bones, you don’t know right away. It’s not as though the bone density test is that sensitive. Oftentimes, people do have other issues where we can see if they’re improving. That’s why it’s so important to initially figure out what could be the root cause because you don’t want to miss anything. Yes, inflammation. People who have rheumatoid arthritis, anything inflammatory because of autoimmune issues will affect the bones as well. It’s a big reason, and it’s something that needs to be taken into consideration and often isn’t.

Dr. Eric: Supplements. There are some people who might ask about taking calcium supplements. What are your thoughts?

Margie: It’s an interesting situation. Calcium is one of those situations where more is not better. What I see is people are getting calcium in their diet. In the United States, what’s recommended for anyone over 50 is 1,200mg of calcium. In terms of other places, it’s like 700. If they are put on 1,200, and they are getting some in their food, that’s more. I see people getting too much calcium because they think that’s the panacea. Let me take calcium supplements. They take the calcium plus what they are getting in their food. It’s too much.

There has been research, nothing 100% conclusive that we can say, “Oh yes, for sure,” but there has been some research on when there is increased calcium over the 1,200, people have had increased kidney stones, increased cardiovascular issues. It used to be called the National Osteoporosis Foundation, and now it’s called National Bone Health. They changed the name because bone health is in all ages, not just osteoporosis.

The recommendation is get as much as you can from food. Only supplement if necessary. That’s what I believe. See what you can get from your food. More is not better.

But the key thing here is that, and this is what’s missing. I work with all sorts of doctors. Most doctors will recommend calcium and Vitamin D, which is so essential; and make sure you have the 25-hydroxy Vitamin D so you see what your level is. Don’t guess this. It’s so important. We see now how it really has been helping with so many things. Our Vitamin D level is so critical. Yes, Vitamin D, calcium, and exercise. They will tell you this.

The other thing is there are some more things that are beyond critical. To absorb that calcium, yes, you need the Vitamin D. I believe in eating the rainbow. You need a whole symphony. It’s not just a few vitamins that will do the trick. You need to eat everything. However, the key ones for osteoporosis are magnesium. So many people are deficient in magnesium. Years ago, we had a 1:1 ratio. The amount of calcium we had to magnesium. Now, people are so deficient in magnesium. It’s so important for so many different activities in your body. At last half the calcium to magnesium, minimum.

The other thing that is so important is Vitamin K2. Vitamin K2 takes that calcium and makes sure it gets into the bones and not into the soft tissue. It’s so important. There is a food called natto that is a Japanese food that is very high in one type of K2 called MK7. They found in those areas of Japan there is a huge reduction in osteoporosis.

Those are the key ones. There is a lot more in terms of manganese, boron, zinc. There are a lot of other things in terms of supplements. Eating from the rainbow. Anti-inflammatory diet is so important. Not the calcium by itself. Try to get it from your food. If not, then you can supplement. The one supplement I don’t like is calcium carbonate. That reduces the acid, like Tums.

Dr. Eric: I’m glad you brought up the K2. Whenever I have someone take D3 supplement, I make sure they take the K2 as well for the reason you mentioned. You said you do recommend for people to test that 25-hydroxy. You have all of your clients go through that?

Margie: Typically, they have had it. Maybe it’s just who I work with here. All of the doctors order that. When people are referred to me, they already have osteoporosis or osteopenia, for the most part. Typically, that is part of the routine workup, the 25-hydroxy test. That is already done typically. I don’t think there is anyone that hasn’t had that that has been referred. That is part of the medical workup.

Dr. Eric: I agree. It is important.

Margie: The other thing is the parathyroid hormone. I’m doing this summit. I had a doctor who is a parathyroid surgeon come onthe summit. So often, she said this is missed. If someone has a tumor on their parathyroid, that can significantly affect your Vitamin D and calcium. A huge reason for osteoporosis is doctors are taught in medical school that if your calcium on your bloodwork is a little bit high, don’t worry about it. No big deal. She talks about that a lot. My point is that that is something that is important in the bloodwork for people to know about. That calcium level doesn’t affect the calcium you are getting in your body, but it can be very important for the parathyroid hormone. Make sure you have a look at the parathyroid hormone. The doctor should. But I wanted to mention that.

Dr. Eric: Good point. They don’t get as concerned if a nutrient like that is high. They are worried about something being low. If calcium is too high once, you want to retest. You can also do a test for parathyroid hormone pretty easily in the blood.

How about exercise? What impact can exercise have on improving bone health?

Margie: This is where I think we can all make such a difference. First of all, the research has shown certain types of exercise can really increase bone density. There was a study called the Lithmore Study done in Australia. They took people who had osteoporosis, low bone density, and put them through some serious weight training, not just minor. They showed improvement in bone density.

But the key thing here is safety. This was a supervised study. I really don’t believe to just go out, find a video, and start doing it. That’s dangerous. As a physical therapist, if you’re not in good posture, if you don’t know what you’re doing, you could really hurt yourself. What I always say is, if you can, and usually this is covered by insurance, get a referral to physical therapy, at least once, so you can figure out what’s best for you. They can look at if you have shoulder problems, hip problems, and give you a custom exercise program. That is my first thing.

Regardless, exercise is so important. The types of exercise that increase bone density are resistance. When the muscles contract against resistance, it’s like tugging on the bone and saying, “We need more bone here.” Strength training is really important. That is what they have shown makes a difference. I would not start it on my own unless you have been doing it for a while. I would work with someone who is knowledgeable in osteoporosis.

High-impact. This depends. If you already have osteoporosis, check what level you’re at with the people you’re working with. But for younger people, jump. Jumping, high impact forces increased bone density. Exercise at any stage can make such a big difference. That’s what I have seen. It’s so incredible. Whatever you can do.

You can always do balance exercises. Everybody should do those all day anyway. Not all day, but often, if you don’t use it, you lose it, both with exercise and balance. By improving your balance, you’re not going to fall. That is what is causing the fractures for the most part. Everybody can do balance exercises. That would be tai chi, standing on one foot, doing stabilizing. I love tai chi. That’s one of my favorites. Even just shifting your weight. The good thing is that when you do it, it’s amazing the difference.

Everybody, even if you’re at high risk, even if you’re on medications, can do the right exercises. That’s what I see. People think, “I will just walk 10 miles.” Yes, it’s good to walk. They did show in the Nurses’ Health study that they reduced your risk of hip fractures. That’s not what is actually increasing bone density. It’s the strength training. It’s lower reps. It’s 8-10 reps, not 50 reps.

The summit I’m doing, I have physical therapists who are fantastic, who are the people who teach the physical therapists demonstrating safe exercises, posture. That is critical. I’m very passionate about that. I’ve seen people, even twice a week when they are doing the right exercises, not only improve their bone density, but improve their strength and activity levels. You feel empowered. You feel really great when you exercise and improve your strength.

Dr. Eric: Especially the balance. I think about that. I do talk to patients at times about increasing weight-bearing exercises, especially with hyperthyroid patients. You also want to be cautious with that. You might need to work with someone for that as well. The balance makes a lot of sense to do what you can to prevent from falling in the future.

Margie: I work with the State of New Jersey on several state programs on exercise. People in their 70s, they’re older. By just doing these several balance exercises, it’s been amazing, and people have said how they felt they were gonna fall. When they are doing weight shifting, when you are going forward and back, which is part of tai chi, they said they didn’t. I can’t even tell you how many people have commented that they really feel these exercises have prevented them from falling. It’s not hard. You can throw these in during your day. That’s what’s so exciting.

Dr. Eric: The last question I have for you, Margie, is I have had a number of broken bones in the past. Early last year, my wife broke her big toe, and it was slow to heal. My question is if you have anything to speed up the healing process, whether it’s supplements or a cold laser (she thought that was beneficial). I wanted to pick your brain on that a bit.

Margie: I always make sure that people are getting the nutrients. I would really up your multivitamin. You’re getting the calcium, magnesium, boron, zinc, everything that builds bone. Make sure you’re getting enough protein. We didn’t talk about that. A lot of people think, “Too much protein isn’t good.” There is a Goldilocks, but you need enough. A lot of people as they get older aren’t getting that much protein for bone healing. Yes, make sure you are getting enough nutrients. If you need to supplement, this is when I would make sure if there is any question to make sure you are getting the bone-building nutrients.

#2 is there is some electrical stimulation. If people are not healing, that can speed up the process. They have done research on different electrical stimulation units. They have done those with non-union fractures. The orthopedists do have different things to help with fracture healing.

Dr. Eric: Thank you so much. You shared a lot of valuable information. Greatly appreciate it, Margie. If you could let people know where they can find you and where they can learn more about you?

Margie: Go to my website, MargieBissinger.com. The podcast is there, too.

Dr. Eric: What’s the name of your summit?

Margie: I’m so excited about this; you have no idea. I have wanted to do this for several years. It just worked out. It’s called the Natural Approaches to Osteoporosis and Bone Health Summit. I have 46 experts in different areas. What I wanted people to do is get tools. The physical therapists are actually showing the exercises. One person is a personal trainer who deals with osteoporosis, who actually worked with Jackie Onassis and Caroline Kennedy. She is showing amazing balance exercises. One physical therapist, Sherry Betz, really shows you how to do the exercises. I have physical therapists demonstrating and explaining the exercises in detail.

I have all sorts of people who deal with this; that is their area of expertise. Functional medicine doctors who work with osteoporosis. What works? What hasn’t worked? People talking about the foods. How to make foods. What do we need to eat? Stress. Not only do these people talk about stress reduction, but they have you go through processes. Even Chinese medicine, going through what we can do from that realm to help our bones. There is so much information. It’s a smorgasbord that you can pick from.

Even signing up. I wrote this exercise book, so that is a free gift when people sign up, just to get people started. It’s basic, what can you do easily. I don’t believe in overwhelm, so I want people to get things gradually. There are a lot of free gifts and lots of tools. That is what I wanted to do. Unfortunately, this information is not out there. Every person does not deal with osteoporosis from a functional medicine viewpoint. I wanted to show people what else is possible.

It’s not on medication at all because that wasn’t the point of it. Even if someone is on medication, absolutely come because you need all of this to build your bones. It goes into every aspect of bone health with all sorts of tools and things that people can put into their life. I’m excited about it getting all this information in one place and out to people. And it’s free. People can listen for free. They don’t have to pay for this.

Dr. Eric: They might as well take advantage of it. This is information that not just people with hyperthyroidism can benefit from, but pretty much everyone. A lot of people are faced with bone density problems as we get older. Whatever age you are, if you are younger, you want to prevent.

Margie: It’s such a good point. The next generation, if we start early, think of the kids. They are sitting like couch potatoes, not eating a good diet. It’s setting them up for poor bone health throughout life. I have a pediatrician who does a thing about milk, why that’s not what to get for the kids. She does a whole talk on what to feed your kids. I also have a whole program called Million Dollar Bones wheresomeone talks for teens about what to do. This is where we are going to make the impact. We are going to change the trajectory of osteoporosis if we start young. 80-90% of bones women have by 18 and men have by 20. It’s all ages. It’s not as if you wait until you’re older. Every age, there are things that can be done. That is what is so great. Putting bone health on the map. Why not enjoy your years later? Why have to worry about later? It’s not necessary when there is so much that can be done.

Dr. Eric: I couldn’t agree more. Thank you so much, Margie. Appreciate you taking the time to share this wonderful information.

Margie: Thank you so much. It’s been a pleasure.

Recently I interviewed Dr. Irene Cop, as we chatted about one of the biggest thyroid healing roadblocks, and below is the written transcript. If you would prefer to listen the interview you can access it by Clicking Here.

Dr. Eric Osansky:

With me, I have Dr. Irene Cop. How are you doing, Dr. Irene?

Dr. Irene Cop:

I’m awesome, thank you, Dr. Eric. How are you?

Dr. Eric:

Doing well.

Dr. Irene:

Thank you for having me here.

Dr. Eric:

You are very welcome. Thank you for joining me. We’re going to dive into Dr. Irene’s bio, as she is the founder of the Stress to Success Shift Institute. Dr. Irene helps purpose-driven high achievers shift from stress to success in all areas of life: their career and wealth, health and energy, relationships and personal life. Dr. Irene’s background and expertise extends to both Eastern and Western medicine, holding dual doctor degrees as a medical doctor as well as a Doctor of Chiropractic. She has extensive training in acupuncture, neuroplasticity, elite performance psychology, stress management. Dr. Irene is a globally sought-after speaker, neurophysiological meditation instructor, and host of the internationally acclaimed podcastThe Stress to Success Shift. Thanks so much for joining us.

Why don’t we start out by discussing a bit of your background, and how you ended up creating The Stress to SuccessShift Institute?

Dr. Irene:

I would love to. I was so happy that you asked me to be a guest on your podcast because of your specialized audience, as it is one that I have found really needs this message. How I started on this journey: I was already a doctor. I was a single mom of two young boys, four and six years old. I thought I had the world by the tail. I was doing it all. I was Superwoman. I was running my full-time practice. I was on the PTA board of directors. I was on the board of directors for the business association. I was running a whole local festival that drew hundreds of thousands of people. I was doing it all. I thought everything was great. That’s what thought did. As you know, Dr. Eric, there is a reason they say doctors make the worst patients.

What I didn’t know is that I was physically burned out and had developed a physical condition that caused me to lose consciousness while I was driving up in northern Canada. I live in Canada. I was driving to visit a friend and lost consciousness. The road curved, and I drove straight into a three-story rock face. It’s very common up there. My two sons were in the car with me. My youngest son had a catastrophic brain injury and had to be airlifted to the nearest sick children’s hospital in Toronto, three hours away. My six-year-old son had PTSD because there were adults throwing up at the scene because of what they witnessed. I ended up with 10 broken bones and a mild brain injury. It was during the first SARS quarantine. COVID is a SARS virus. Take COVID, except the first SARS was even more severe.

I was in hospital on quarantine with these 10 broken bones. Worse than the physical pain of the 10 broken bones was the emotional and mental pain that I was experiencing, suffering. I almost killed my young sons, the two people I cared about more than anything in the world. The guilt, the shame, the remorse was just- I was spiraling down. I was drowning in quicksand. My inner judge and jury had already convicted me. “What kind of mother are you? What kind of doctor are you for not knowing? What kind of monster are you for hurting these two beautiful souls?”

It took a couple weeks before they even decided my youngest son was going to live. After they decided he was, this top neurosurgeon in Canada said, “He’s never going to walk or talk. He’s not going to pass high school.” I am getting this news while lying all broken in my hospital bed. I was getting news on the other side that my six-year-old son was basically kicked out of school for the remainder of the year because he was threatening to hurt others and himself. The anger that was pouring out of him. It was truly the darkest point of my life. It literally was.

Then it got darker, surprisingly. Somehow, even though I couldn’t have visitors, I was served with legal papers. My ex-husband sued me for full custody of our children, saying I was a danger to them and an incompetent mother. I was lying in this dark hospital room, bawling my eyes out, tears streaming down my face. Why me? Why? That inner judge and jury agreed with my ex-husband. “I am an awful mother. I don’t deserve them. In fact, I am a danger to them. I almost killed them.” This dialogue was swirling around inside of me.

Finally, I realized I have a choice. I can either continue to spiral down and roll over and give up and say, “You’re right. I don’t deserve them. Here, take them. You’ll do a far better job.” We had joint custody before that. Or I realized I could give myself the grace of understanding that what I had experienced, the physical burnout, was something that was a silent pandemic that has killed far more people through the years than COVID. It’s hidden and accepted and encouraged and expected by our culture that we have to achieve to be worthy, that we have to give until we’re bled dry. It’s this gauntlet mentality of we don’t have what it takes if we’re weak, if we’re lazy because we’re tired. That shame, that stigma, associated with burnout. Obviously, we don’t have what it takes, and we should just give up and crawl away intoa corner. Better yet, man up. Suck it up. Take it like a man. Guys hear this. Women have our own version of it.

Irecognized that far from being alone, hundreds of millions of people, now we can say billions, are burned out. Over 90% of people are burned out in some areas of the workforce. It’s not just workplace related. COVID has shown us that. It’s our personal lives when life throws its curveballs like COVID. Guess what? We don’t just have to worry about us getting sick or our family getting sick; parents still get Alzheimer’s or cancer. Maybe we get diagnosed with breast cancer or prostate cancer. Our kids fall down and break legs. We go in and out of lockdowns, and we have to homeschool our children and juggle our own home/work life as well. It’s only gotten worse.

What I realized that day was that with my education and my personal experience, I was the perfect person to lead the charge on eradicating burnout. I call it flameout syndrome because burnout is only supposed to be workplace related. I have been on a mission ever since to help as many people in the world as possible avoid suffering what my family and I suffered. We should have died, and we didn’t. That is the background story.

Because I refused to accept that prognosis of my son being able to walk, talk, or pass high school, I went looking for the answers. I went back to school and got my medical degree at that point. I took six or seven certification courses. I got certified in brain injury so I could talk to all the experts in brain injury, so they would have to pay attention to me. I went looking for all of the answers. Spent years doing it.

I am happy to say both of my sons are doing great. My youngest son not only walks and talks, but he is also in his fourth year of engineering at one of the best schools in Canada. I cried tears of joy when he was accepted. It wasn’t easy, and it wasn’t just one simple decision. It’s been worth it every single step of the way.

What I realized was what helped my family and I heal were the very steps I’ve applied to other patients because I was still in physical practice and helped them get the so-called miraculous results that others weren’t getting. I became known as the go-to, last resort doctor. That’s not arrogance in saying it. I worked hard to find those answers and to become that person with those answers. It’s not rocket science. It’s energy efficiency. Really, truly, that’s what it comes down to.

When you remove all the energy efficiencies, we have this amazing innate genius in our body that allows us to heal and can heal ourselves. I don’t heal anybody else. I am no longer in physical practice. I now do it virtually with my programs and group coaching and some 1:1 coaching. The beautiful part is I am not doing it for anyone in my community. I am giving them the tools and showing them how to heal themselves. True success to me is in all areas of your life. You can’t have true success in your career and your wealth if your health and energy is down the toilet. Same with your relationships. That’s not true success. You have to have it everywhere in all parts of your life.

Dr. Eric:

That is so true.That is a traumatic story, but everything thankfully turned out okay with you and your sons. I’m glad they’re successful and healthy. You turned your life around as well. It’s one of those things where I dealt with Graves’, and now I help people with autoimmune thyroid conditions. You help so many people through your experience with burnout and helping them become successful.

Your case was an extreme stress situation. There are a lot of situations out there like that. But there are also everyday chronic stressors as well. In those situations, there is only so much we could do for the actual stressor. Getting into the perception, would you agree that a big part of handling stress, handling burnout is trying to change the environment and the perception of the stressor?

Dr. Irene:

Absolutely. I always say true success is an inside out job. Dealing with stress is as well. Dr. Hans Selye considered the father of stress—he coined the terms “stress” and “fight or flight”—he did all the research showing the physical effects of short-term, middle-term, and long-term stress. Even he said, and I will paraphrase him, “Stress is neither good nor bad, except thinking makes it so.” In other words, stress, when it’s used right, is our body’s high-octane energy. It is our superpower. They always talk about that stereotype of a 98-pound mother who lifts a car off her pinned child because the stress and the fear for her child gives her that strength in the moment. You couldn’t pay that woman millions of dollars to do it any other time. It’s in the moment, and it’s using her high-octane energy. That’s the beautiful part about it.

Our stress response is a beautiful part of what makes us amazing. It’s not just us. We share it with the animal kingdom. Stress response is our survival mode. We all have our different ways of being hardwired. Just as a gazelle runs when faced with a tiger, or a honey badger turns and fights, or a rabbit is paralyzed and shaking in fear, or a possum falls down and plays dead, we humans have the same hardwired responses. We either flee, fight, freeze, or faint, the four F’s. That part is a very necessary mechanism. It’s what has kept us alive for the most part and allowed us to survive so well through the millennia.

Where it becomes unhealthy is we are the only animals that we know of in the universe where we can continuously think about what happened in the past. Because part of that survival instinct is to think pessimistically, we don’t tend to focus on the glory days when we think about the past. We tend to focus on that fight I had with my spouse, or the thing my boss said to me, or the trauma we have suffered. When we dwell on the past, it’s all of the things that went wrong.

By the same token, we are the only animals who can focus on the future and future pacing. Again, part of what we instinctively, up until now, have been raised with is that negativity, that cautiousness. We don’t tend to think about how things are going to go well for us in the future. Our automatic default is to think about how things are going to go badly. Am I going to be able to pay the bills? Am I going to get sick? Am I going to be alone for the rest of my life? When we worry, that’s future pacing, and it’s negative. We are the only ones who can dwell on the past and worry about the future, which is both negative. Bothof those ramp up our stress response.

Then you add on a huge dollop of COVID. We literally are not getting a break. We are living in our stress responses. Unlike the gazelle that, hopefully if they make it clear of the lion or tiger, and they’re not meat for somebody, within about 20 minutes, after all of the stress neurotransmitters are used up and leave the system, they literally just shake it off and go back to grazing. They don’t stand there shaking with fear going, “What if there is another lion? I can’t believe what happened. I almost got eaten.” Gazelles don’t do that. We humans do.

A lot of what you’re talking about, we bring it on ourselves. I say that with all the love in my heart. We are continuously being chased by that lion, that tiger. We are constantly barely surviving in stress and survival mode. The challenge with that is that it’s really great for when you’re in the short-term. You have the adrenaline. That is the gazelle running away or the 98-pound mother lifting the car. It’s not meant to last for hours. The adrenaline is a short-term, high-octane juice.

Then your cortisol hormone ramps up. That is your marathon. It’s a hormone. It’s not a neurotransmitter. A neurotransmitter is a chemical messenger that happens in milliseconds. “I gotta do something now.” The cortisol takes more time to ramp up, but it’s that, “Okay, a den lion is not going to leave me alone. I gotta keep going.” It’s not as high-octane as the adrenaline, but it does the trick as far it’s meant to, which is keep you alive as much as possible.

The challenge again is that it’s only meant to be for a relatively short period of time, to allow you to get to safety so you can rest and relax and recuperate. The challenge is that if it keeps going, the long-term effects of having the cortisol hormone running through our body, it massively creates havoc. One way it gives our bodies enough juice to keep going is that it ramps up blood sugar. You pack on the pounds, which can lead to high blood sugar and diabetes, which can lead to heart disease and cardiovascular disease. It also ramps up blood pressure, which can lead into cardiovascular disease. It messes with other hormones of your body, like your hypothalamus and pituitary. Guess what? There is the thyroid hormone. Your thyroid is the metabolism. “I need more. I need more.” It can lead to problems like crappy sleep. It messes with your hormone balance. It causes inflammation in the body. Inflammation in the body is that derangement of the immune system where it goes all wonky. You get allergies that maybe you didn’t have before, or you haven’t had in years. Food sensitivities are another one. Of course, autoimmune conditions like Graves’.

In other words, I know you and I have talked about this in the past. I have talked with other experts of other autoimmune conditions. It’s wherever your weakest link is, whether it’s Graves’ or Hashimoto’s or multiple sclerosis or rheumatoid arthritis. I could keep naming them. It’s an autoimmune condition that happens because of this stress response. There is very typically trauma at the root of it, whether it’s massive trauma or cumulative micro-traumas. This is how chronic stress and our bodies’ way of trying to deal with it causes and greatly aggravates autoimmune conditions. I’m sure your community has found that if they were undercontrolled before, all of a sudden, things are out of wack, and they are coming to you with questions.

That is how the chronic stress directly leads to the development of Graves’. If it keeps going, you end up with adrenal exhaustion, where you have nothing. That is where it can get a whole lot worse from there physically, mentally, and emotionally.

Dr. Eric:

Thanks for making that connection. That is one thing I wanted to discuss with you, so you beat me to the punch. You dove into the connection between stress and autoimmunity. It’s not just Graves’, but pretty much any autoimmune condition. I can say from my own experience that stress was a big factor in the development of my condition. Emotional stressors played a role. Overtraining in my case put a lot of strain on the adrenals. I did adrenal testing.

I do a lot of adrenal testing with my patients. We confirm that cortisol levels are not looking good. A lot of people have the depressed DHEA levels. Not only will that dysregulation of the HPA access (hypopituitary adrenal axis) lead to that pro-inflammatory state. Another mechanism with autoimmunity is that you have that increased intestinal permeability. When you have the high cortisol levels, that can decrease secretory IGA, which lines the mucosal surfaces of the body, including the gastrointestinal tract, so that could be a factor in causing a leaky gut. It could maybe not directly cause autoimmunity but at least be a contributing factor. Thanks for making that connection.

When it comes to trauma, you mentioned there are different types of trauma. I’ve heard you in the past discussing them. Could you elaborate more on that?

Dr. Irene:

I’d love to because it’s such a huge factor. I loved how you tied it all together with the physiological side of how stress impacts Graves’ Disease. Trauma can be physical, mental, emotional. That may sound strange to say.

A physical trauma, I’ll give an example after I broke the 10 bones. Not only was I already burned out, but I was 35. I’ll be vain and say I didn’t look 35. Somebody had brought in a picture for me of my sons and myself. It had only been taken a few months earlier. It was sitting on my hospital table. An orderly came in. He looked at me, looked at the picture, and goes, “Is that you?” I said yes. He said, “You looked so young then.” Aside from the fact that obviously somebody didn’t teach him he wasn’t supposed to say that to a woman, he was right.

I had aged 10 years overnight. That is the physical impact of breaking 10 bones. My hair went darker. I have a picture afterward when I was able to sit in a wheelchair, and my back is to the camera. If I hadn’t known it was me, I wouldn’t have recognized me because my hair was a dark brown. It literally changed it. People will talk about that when they go through chemotherapy, and their hair will go curly or straight, or they will lose it, or it will go dark. It’s interesting how our body will respond to physical trauma.

Then there is the mental and emotional trauma. I’ve had people say to me, “I’ve never had trauma.” Oh, okay. Let’s talk through it and see. Often what they mean is that they don’t have trauma they recognize as being trauma. That can happen in a number of ways. In the extreme—and I have had this happen because I had an abusive childhood due to a father with PTSD—I didn’t remember anything before the age of eight. It was a survival mechanism, and it’s well-known in the literature that people have amnesia after trauma. They have selective memory. They don’t remember. Or it may be that it was considered acceptable, so it wasn’t considered to be trauma.

A good example of this is abuse. Physical abuse. Until not that long ago in relative terms, in the UK, there was a law—this is where the phrase “rule of thumb” comes from—that a man could not hit his wife, children, or animals with a stick bigger than this thumb. That was humane. It was in the law. In that time, women were considered chattels. Children were considered chattels. Property. It was not only accepted that a man might beat his family, but it was expected that he should keep them in line. Another phrase, “Spare the rod, spoil the child.” Even though at some point, women gained the right to vote and were no longer under the law considered “property,” old programming dies hard. There have been a lot of generations down since that time that grew up with, “Well, that’s just the way things were. You got whacked with a belt or a rod.” If a wife didn’t get dinner on table in time, she got whacked. There is a huge part of our programming that may still be telling us that’s not trauma.

Or it may be the micro-traumas. Instead of one big event, how about a bunch of little traumas wearing you down? It can be even the anticipation of trauma, shown in vets who were waiting to be deployed to Afghanistan. They didn’t even have to go. The future pacing, the worrying. They were already there in their minds. There was that fear, that negative anticipation of “Any time, I could get called up. That will be that phone call or email.” You’re constantly on tender hooks. That’s another way that personal trauma can happen.

Then there are two other types of trauma we are just starting to learn about. One is intergenerational trauma, which is where our parents, our grandparents, anyone who raised us, the trauma they went through, they teach unconsciously their fear responses and physical reactions to the trauma they had as children. That would be a case where a mother is afraid of spiders. “Eek!” The child learns to go, “Eek!” As they are being a sponge and downloading all of the programming as a child, there is no filter. They download the good, bad, and ugly. Bring it on. Load me up. Trauma that we didn’t personally experience ourselves.

Now they also realize there is something I call epigenetic trauma in PTSD. Your forbearers, your ancestors, went through trauma, and it modified the expression of the DNA, your genes. They have shown that fear responses can be transmitted down even without having direct contact with that person. Physical conditions can become part of it as well, where they show that offspring of people who have gone through trauma have a higher mortality rate and increased physical diseases than their siblings who were born before. Same family, same household. The only change was that one was born after, so the DNA was modified and then transmitted.

That is an area that is just on the cutting edge of what they’re learning about. They know it goes back at least three generations. The reality is they don’t know how far back it goes. When you look at just the past 100 years of what our ancestors have gone through, on a global scale, a couple world wars, at least one great depression, multiple other wars, slavery, Aboriginal mistreatment. That is not even including the personal traumas that have happened in lives. You can look at cultures, countries, your personal family, and go, “Wow, what trauma am I being impacted by that I don’t even know about that has set me up for failure physically, mentally, and emotionally?” That is why in my programs, I devote a huge part to releasing that trauma. It is a massive energy vampire that is sucking the energy right out of you so that you don’t have that opportunity to heal.

On top of that, without you even realizing it, it’s putting you into survival mode. You are unconsciously continuously living and reliving that trauma and the impacts of that trauma. You may be aware of it, or you may not be aware of it. All of that leads to that chronic stress, that adrenal exhaustion, which can then lead to Graves’.

Dr. Eric:

Pretty amazing, the connection. If someone is dealing with a current stressor, whether they are a caretaker, or they have a job that is stressful and they are not in a position to leave the job, compared to someone where the stressor was in the past. It’s a past trauma, but it’s still an issue. Whether it’s a trigger for Graves’ or a different autoimmune condition, or preventing them from recovering, is it a similar approach regardless of the nature of the stressor, or whether it was a past trauma?

Dr. Irene:

Yes and no. I am a firm believer that awakening awareness is 80% of the battle and the solution. It’s not to say that you can’t heal without it. Dr. Eric, I know you are a phenomenal doctor, but even you might have those clients where no matter how right the treatments are, they are just not getting better. There is an example of where you can be doing everything right, just as before I crashed and burned, I did everything right. I ate right, slept right, exercised. I was a meditation instructor, so I taught it and did it. I did all of that. I was still set up for failure by these energy vampires. You can do the right nutrition, take the right supplements, work on the hormone balances, do all of that right, and that’s important. Absolutely. If somebody still is not getting better, and this is why I still kept looking for those answers, if somebody is not getting better despite the best treatments out there, then there is something else at play, whether you recognize what it is or not.

There are two approaches. You can do a general elimination diet of trauma and stress, where you use the tools to work through how you’re feeling. “I’m feeling anxious. I’m feeling low. I’m feeling despair. I’m feeling hopeless. I’m angry.” You can work through that. In my experience, the more that you can drill down and get to the root cause, the more likely you are going to pull out the whole weed, the whole thorn that is sticking you in the side, where you can truly heal. Otherwise, it may take longer. For somebody who has had trauma in the past, and they know what it is, or we work together through it to figure out what it might be, then that is incredibly impactful.

For somebody who is going through current, or they are worried about the future, that actually canbe even more challenging. When you are feeling powerless, when you feel like life is being done to you—and let’s face it, most of the world is feeling that way right now—you are unwittingly the victim in your story. People don’t like to think of themselves as victims. It means simply that. You are not in control. You feel powerless. As long as you feel powerless anddon’t recognize that you have the ability to change your situation, and if you don’t believe that you can change, then you can’t. It comes down to choice and choosing to know that you have that ability first and foremost. Otherwise, you are in a cage of your own making. It’s that learned helplessness.

I love the analogy, not how it came to be, but how they train adult elephants to stay put. The biggest land mammal in the world. They start out as a baby, and they put this big, heavy, honking chain around their leg. They will bolt it into cement, and the baby elephant will try pulling and pulling, and they can’t get free. After a while, they stop trying. They get to be an adult elephant, the biggest, strongest in the world, and all they have to do is tie a little rope to it and maybe even attach it to a chair that is not bolted down. That elephant won’t even try to get free. That is learned helplessness.

Unfortunately, whether it’s because of our programming or our experienced trauma or the adversity that taught us we were powerless before so we don’t try now, or maybe a belief. I had a patient say to me once, “I’ve been diagnosed with prostate cancer.” I said, “How do you feel about that?” They said, “I was expecting it. All of the men in my family get prostate cancer. My father had it. My brother had it. I knew it was only a matter of time before I got it.” There is the biology of belief, as Bruce Lipton would say. It also adds to the victim. That learned helplessness, why even bother trying? I can’t do anything about it anyway.

It’s the awareness that makes the difference. The key for the victim is awakening awareness to go, “Wow, it doesn’t have to be that way.” This one tiny shift. Now what?

Dr. Eric:

You help people to overcome that learned helplessness. I do recommend for most of my patients mind body medicine techniques such as yoga, meditation, deep breathing. Some people are religious about doing it, and some people don’t do it. Some people might do it randomly. Either way, it sounds like it goes way beyond doing meditation. For a good number of people, that might be enough.

As you said, let’s say they are incorporating mind body medicine techniques, and they are doing everything, which happens with all practitioners, where people will reach a roadblock. This learned helplessness is something people should look into. I’m sure it comes to a relief to some people listening to this. I can imagine how frustrating it is for someone who is actually doing everything: following the diet, doing mind body medicine, and everything else that is recommended, and they still are not healing. Thank you for sharing that.

Dr. Irene:

Absolutely. I am a neurophysiological meditation instructor. I love it, and I love yoga, and I advocate for those mindset practices, like gratitude and appreciation. There is so much you can do to help yourself. And that is conscious-level.

The major roadblock that I talk about in my Five Steps to Shift from Stress to Success Blueprint is that when you are in stress, in survival mode, it literally wipes out your prefrontal cortex. That is the fancy word for the part of your brain behind your forehead. That is what I call your rockstar executive team. It’s what is responsible for being able to think straight, think logically, make good decisions, remember things, come up with creative solutions, be motivated to take action, just take the action, and very importantly, emotional inhibition, so you are not crying at the drop of a hat and flying off the handle at loved ones or coworkers. That is all the very important functions that are wiped out when you are in survival mode.

All we have to do is look around the world to see that most people are in survival mode right now. A lot of the anger and fear and polarity that we are seeing right now is that survival mode. People are either going to their hardwired, they want to fight, or they are afraid and shivering in fear. That is not a judgment in the slightest.

As long as your executive team is offline, then mind/body practices, you are not likely going to do them, and they are not going to work. It takes conscious thought to think, “I am going to be grateful right now. I am going to be mindful right now and actively appreciate what’s going on.” You are in survival mode. You want that to happen. You want the prefrontal cortex to be wiped out so you can go into your hardwired survival mode, whatever that happens to be. It’s not the time to sit there and go, “There is a lion approaching me. Should I run? Should I fight? Should I freeze and pretend he doesn’t see me?” No, you need to go into whatever survival mode you are suited for. That’s the good part about it.

That’s why I teach what I call lovingly SOS tools, to get to that unconscious level so they can then kickstart- It decreases down the stress response so that you have that reset, that relaxation, just like the gazelle, so your rockstar executive team can kick back in. Then you go, “It would be a good thing for me to meditate today.”

Everything I teach, and perhaps what is different about what many others do, is that I focus on the unconscious level first. That is where your survival mode is. It’s deep down in that primitive part of your brain that you share with all other animals. It’s like an iceberg. Yes, the part that is sticking out of the water looks majestic and beautiful. The reality is the massive bulk of the iceberg, which can be the most dangerous part, as the Titanic found out, is hidden underneath the water. That’s like your unconscious mind. Every tool I teach is about blasting away at the underside to release it so that it’s done in the fastest, easiest, most powerful way possible. I am an impatient person. I go looking for things that give you the results yesterday as much as possible.

That is the difference. Yes, I agree with you. If there is anyone listening who hasn’t been getting the results, maybe you’re frustrated. Maybe you’re impatient like me. Maybe you’re to the point of feeling despair, that there is no hope. “I am always going to be stuck with this.” The fear of it getting worse. “What is my life going to look like?” Just know there is hope. There are tools. Many clients have seen those so-called miraculous results that I look at and go, “It’s just energy efficiency. We have improved the energy efficiency.” That’s all it is.

Dr. Eric:

Thank you so much for sharing this information. You mentioned a blueprint. Can you let people know where to get that blueprint? Feel free to share your website. Remind them of your podcast. You also have an upcoming bootcamp as well. A lot of information, but if you could share where to find it.

Dr. Irene:

The Five-Step Stress to Success Shift Blueprint is the five steps that I realized that my family and I needed to go through to heal, which is part of success. Then I used them with so many other people as well. Each of those five steps allow you to shift, pun intended, from stress to success. If any one of those steps is out of line, and you haven’t taken care of it, then that will be a major roadblock. I have also recognized, because as I said, I did everything right, and I still developed catastrophic flameout syndrome. I realized that what set me up for failure were those energy inefficiencies: the faulty programming, the fears, trauma—I had a lot of trauma—the self-sabotage patterns that were at play.

I have a workbook that your audience can download. It’s awakening awareness around your success blocks. Remember, I said awareness is 80% of the battle and the solution. Because I realized that this was something that was so needed, I created a four-week bootcamp called Retrain Your Brain Bootcamp. It’s four weeks to shift from stress to success. It’s all about clearing the biggest, baddest of each of those four areas: the worst programming glitches I have seen in most people, the big fears, the sabotage patterns, and the personal, intergenerational, and epigenetic trauma. There is a group starting on January 17 as well. That will be led by another doctor who is one of my team members. I will be there as well. That is an opportunity to truly start digging down deep and finally once and for all releasing those energy vampires o you can heal and have the best, most successful life possible.

Dr. Eric:

If they are not ready yet to dive into that, there is the podcast, too.

Dr. Irene:

Yes, I have my own podcast. Dr. Eric, you will be on there soon. We will be flipping the tables on you. That is the beautiful part about it. We all bring value. My podcast is called The Stress to Success Shift. There is the Awakening Awareness workbook they can do around their success blocks. My website is DrIreneCop.com. You can find me on social media as well.

Dr. Eric:

Thanks again, Dr. Irene. Appreciate the time and all the information you provided.

Dr. Irene:

It’s been my pleasure. Thank you so much, Dr. Eric.

www.HyperthyroidHealing.com

Recently I interviewed Jodi Cohen, as we chatted about essential oils, and below is the written transcript. If you would prefer to listen the interview you can access it by Clicking Here:

Dr. Eric Osansky:                                                                         

With me here, I have Jodi Sternoff Cohen, who is a best-selling author, award-winning journalist, functional practitioner, and founder of Vibrant Blue Oils, where she has combined her training in nutritional therapy and aromatherapy to create unique proprietary blends of organic and well-crafted essential oils. She has helped over 50,000 clients heal from brain-related challenges, including anxiety, insomnia, and autoimmunity. For the past 10 years, she has lectured at wellness centers, conferences, and corporations on brain health, essential oils, stress, and detoxification. She has been seen in The New York Times, Wellness Mama, Elephant Journal, and numerous publications. Her website is VibrantBlueOils.com. This is visited by over 300,000 natural health seekers every year. She has rapidly become a top resource for essential oil education on the internet today.

Wow. Very impressive credentials, Jodi. Thanks for joining me.

Jodi Cohen:

Oh my gosh. Always a pleasure. It’s fun to talk to you.

Dr. Eric:

Why don’t we start out by talking about your backstory? How and why did you start Vibrant Blue Oils?

Jodi:

Necessity is the mother of invention. My nutrition story really started with my second child. My first child was really easy, and I just assumed I was this great mom. I had another one 22 months later. My second one was more challenging. He had very little impulse control. We used to try to cue him by touching our nose, saying, “Look at my nose.” He was all over the place. I was taking every parenting class I could find, reading every parenting book. Nothing really helped.

One day, we were at a birthday party, and a friend of mine noticed that he was behaving really well and complimented me. The next thing we knew, another mom handed out a snack, like a Ritz cracker or something. My son literally ate the cracker and Jekyll/Hyded and took off running in the opposite direction. After I sprinted after him, grabbed him, and brought him back, my friend said, “Gosh, I’ve never seen him shift like that after eating something. My brother was on Ritalin his whole life, and it turns out he was just allergic to weird foods. You should take him to a nutritionist.” I thought, that’s easy. I’ve done everything else.

Took him to a nutritionist. The nutritionist basically said he was super sensitive to excitotoxins and of course corn, soy, and dairy, pretty much everything in that Ritz cracker. When we changed his diet, the next day he could look at our nose. He was an entirely different child. I was so blown away by the difference food could make that I went back and got a degree in nutrition and was trying to help other moms with the kids. I lived in Seattle, Washington near Bastyr University, so I had access to all these great Bastyr practitioners. I learned this technique called muscle testing that I found super helpful for assessing wiggly children.

It later turned out to be very helpful when my own rock bottom hit. My then-husband was so depressed that we had to move him into a residential treatment facility. Once I knew he was safe, and it wasn’t my job to keep him safe, it was like I could finally tap out of the marathon. I had no energy. My adrenals were kaput. I could barely get out of bed. The kids were five and seven. I would get up with them, make them breakfast, pack their lunch, take them to school, come home, climb back in bed, and set the alarm for pickup. I knew enough to know it was my adrenals, that I should be taking glandulars, that I was taking adaptogenic herbs. Basically, everything I was ingesting did nothing.

A friend of mine who I had helped with a fundraiser had been planning to give me a box of essential oils as a thank-you gift. She showed up and said, “You know, you have been so high stress,” which means high cortisol, “that I bet you’re systemically inflamed. I bet everything you’re ingesting isn’t getting assimilated and absorbed. Oils are a nice roundabout way to get things in your system because you can smell them and get them in through the olfactory channel. You can topically apply them and get them through the skin. This might help.”

For anyone who has felt like nothing they’re trying really works, and they have that moment of hopelessness and despair, like, “Nothing will help me, this might be my new forever,” and then someone says, “Maybe this will work,” you’re like, “Throw me any rope. I’ll try it.” I muscle tested the box to see if anything in there would help my adrenals. I was really encouraged because I got a very strong yes.

What I typically do is dig further to see what kind of remedy is going to be supportive. I kept getting the same five oils, which threw me initially because I normally get one or two. Then it occurred to me that they are fluid, liquid. I can combine them. I decided to test each one, five drops of this, seven drops of that. Pulled a shot glass out of my kitchen. Mixed them. Put them over my adrenals on my lower back. Felt like myself. It was like a reset button had been pushed. I could go running. I could go to the supermarket. I could do laundry. All those things that felt like too much for the past month, I was finally able to tackle.

I just kept making up other remedies. When I felt better, my friends in the health community were like, “What did you do? We want to try it.” It was testing for their clients, testing for everyone. They kept saying, “You should do something with this.” I originally thought, Gosh, it’s so obvious. Someone must be doing this.

I finally felt like I had enough of my wherewithal to go online and research what was out there. I was very surprised by two things. The first being that no one was really looking at blends to support different organ systems and regions of the brain.

The second was that they made it seem really complicated. If I had had my wits about me and started with research, I never would have blended essential oils because I would have felt completely unqualified. That was kind of the impetus. I tripped into something that helped me personally and seemed to help other people. Once I knew that, it felt helpful just to put it out there.

Dr. Eric:

Wonderful. Thank you for sharing that. Can you talk about some of the different applications of essential oils, like topical versus aromatherapy? Are there different indications for each one? Do you have a preference?

Jodi:

I definitely have a preference. The easiest way to use an oil is to unscrew the top of a bottle and smell it right under your nose. It goes directly into your system. It’s really accessible. I know a lot of people talk about diffusing, and that’s because you literally burn through it a lot faster. But it’s also wasteful because you only need that little bit below your nose for maybe 10 seconds. To fill a whole room with it, a lot of it is going to waste.

There is also topical application. What I do is use specific acupuncture points, like reflex points, to apply it. One of the things that people talk about is there is a localized effect. You hurt your wrist, and you put an inflammatory cream on it, and it helps your wrist. That’s localized. It doesn’t necessarily help your back, but it doesn’t matter. People assume a topical application of essential oils, if you hurt your wrist and are putting an anti-inflammatory oil on your wrist, yes, it will help your wrist. If you are putting it on an acupuncture point or a reflex point, it can help systemically. People dismiss topical application. They assume it needs to get through the skin into the bloodstream and get carried to the liver, and then get pumped from the heart through the body. That takes too long. So it’s faster to drink it or inhale it. But when you’re using acupuncture points, it actually sends a signal immediately. That’s what I try to do and how I’m different than other essential oil companies or practitioners.

Dr. Eric:

Hmm, that’s pretty interesting. My followers are those with thyroid and autoimmune thyroid conditions. I know that some essential oil experts talk about myrrh and frankincense and rubbing the essential oils on the thyroid gland after diluting it with carrier oil.

Jodi:

You can do that. That won’t hurt you. But the way I look at it is there is always things that are going astray under the surface. The way I look at it with thyroid is it’s a combination of stress, gut issues, and detoxification challenges because that then throws off the endocrine system, which throws off your thyroid. What I am trying to do is return those systems to balance through the application of topical remedy often in combination with diet, lifestyle, supplements, and other things. We are trying to make sure the garbage leaves your body, so it doesn’t get recirculated and cause stress on the liver and then throw off thyroid functions.

We are trying to ensure that your hypothalamus adrenal pituitary access is not overfunctioning and throwing off your hypothalamus so then the signals to the thyroid are getting confused. We are also trying to ensure that you’re able to digest, absorb, and assimilate all of your nutrients that are the precursors and building blocks to your thyroid signaling mechanisms.

Dr. Eric:

If I understand you correctly, the priority wouldn’t be reducing inflammation, but more addressing underlying causes and imbalances, using essential oils to support the gut, support the liver, reduce your toxic load, support adrenals.

Jodi:

Yes. I mean, it won’t hurt you to put frankincense and myrrh on your thyroid. To me, that’s teaching someone to tread water as opposed to helping them swim ashore.

Dr. Eric:

Makes sense. You have a history of Hashimoto’s as well, correct?

Jodi:

Yes, it’s pretty much in remission. it’s been going steadily down over time. I love Izabella Wentz and her stuff. Basically, oils are great. It’s like if someone wants to lose weight, I think of exercising or dieting. Do both. The more you can throw at whatever is out of balance, the easier it is to return to balance. Definitely they should be working with you. They should be changing their lifestyle, their diet, add in some supplements, and you can also use oils to hit it from a different angle.

Dr. Eric:

It’s great to hear you say that. You’re encouraging people to use essential oils but not in isolation. In combination with eating well, stress management, other supplements may also be necessary. Of course, I would expect that answer. But one question that I did have is if you use essential oils as a substitute for other supplements. It sounds like the answer is no, that you use them in combination.

Jodi:

I’ll give you an example. We have an oil that I call Parasympathetic. We put it behind the earlobe on the mastoid bone. It stimulates the parasympathetic nervous system, which is the nervous system that controls your whole digestive cascade. If you’re eating in a parasympathetic state of the nervous system, you’re better able to digest, absorb, and assimilate your nutrients and supplements. If you’re taking a gram of nature throid, and you’re stressed out all the time, what actually gets assimilated might be less. You might need a higher dose. If you are able to digest, absorb, and assimilate all of your nutrients and supplements, it’s possible that you can over time work down in dosage, just because you’re getting more from what you’re ingesting. I always tell people to work with a doctor. This is not a do it yourself guessing game.

Dr. Eric:

Definitely makes sense. You mentioned the parasympathetic nervous system. Can you talk more about the role of the vagus nerve, not only when it comes to digestion, but anxiety, and what essential oils you would recommend in those cases? Obviously, it depends upon the person probably, but some general ones you commonly recommend.

Jodi:

Backing up. Your autonomic nervous system controls your autonomic functions: your breathing, heart rate, digestion, detoxification. All of the things that the body does automatically that you don’t need to think about. It’s really designed to keep you alive. It has different gears, different speeds, kind of like in your car, you can accelerate, or you can slow down. If there is any kind of danger, we use the example of the lion chasing us down the street. I don’t see that many lions on my street in Seattle, but I do see a lot of people who watch the news and get nervous. Or maybe see something on social media, and they feel fearful.

When we’re feeling like our survival is at stake, our nervous system prioritizes resources differently. It activates what’s known as the sympathetic branch of the nervous system, or the fight or flight branch. Blood flow for example is routed away from your core, your organs of digestion and detoxification to your arms and limbs, so you can fight or flee.

Your eyesight changes. You can look at people’s pupils, the black part of their eyes. If they’re in sympathetic fight or flight, that black part is much bigger, like a saucer. That allows you to take in more light. It’s called selective attention. If you are trying to escape danger or fight danger, you do not need to contemplate the history of the universe. That might paralyze you because you are overwhelmed with options. You just need to focus in on those immediate choices, so your pupils get really big.

If you have anyone in your life who tends to be anxious, and you are trying to have an important conversation, check their pupil size. If they’re big, they’re not going to hear you because they can’t take that information in. When my kids were little, one of the preschool teachers said, “Connect before you correct,” meaning that if you are at the playground, and he throws something in the sandbox, don’t yell at him in the sandbox. Scoop him up, move him to a different part of the playground, let him calm down, make sure the pupils are small, and then say, “Hey, this is a friendly place. If we can’t be friendly, we can’t be here.” Then they can hear you.

Anyway, when you are in sympathetic fight or flight, you are not able to heal. That is not helpful to your thyroid. What you want to do is gearshift into parasympathetic, where you can rest, repair, and regenerate. The gearshift between these two branches of your nervous system is the vagus nerve. It is the longest nerve in the body that most people have never heard of. Cranial nerve #10 starts in the very back of the head. It connects the brain to the body, body to the brain. It splits and is most accessible right behind the earlobe on both sides. It winds around both sides. It then winds through the throat, the heart, the lungs. Any point the vagus nerve touches can be used to stimulate or shift gears and turn on parasympathetic. This is why deep breathing is so helpful. This is why yoga is great. You’re stimulating the vagus nerve.

Early in my oil journey, I had read some research that bergamot is great for calming the nervous system. People think of lavender. I was playing with how to activate my parasympathetic nervous system. I was getting mediocre results. When you go on a diet and you lose one pound, you didn’t gain weight, but it’s not great. I started digging into the research and coming upon a vagus nerve stimulation strategy. There was one practitioner, a neuroscientist out of New York, called Kevin Tracey, who was actually surgically implanting pacemaker-like devices behind the ear lobe on the mastoid bone. It was two surgeries, one behind the earlobe and one in the neck for the battery. He was having amazing success stimulating the vagus nerve, turning on parasympathetic. The FDA actually approved this for epilepsy, depression, and migraines.

When I heard stimulate, it was almost like a light bulb went on, like Oh, I don’t sedate, I stimulate. It’s not that you need to calm the vagus nerve with lavender or chamomile. You need to stimulate it. Listeners may know there are several oils that are stimulatory or hot, like peppermint, oregano, rosemary, thyme, cinnamon, clove. Things that if you were to put a little bit on your skin, your skin might feel warm. It might look a little red. If this happens, you do not want to put water on it. Oil and water don’t mix. You would take another oil, anything in your house. It could be vegetable oil, coconut oil, and dilute with that other oil on top, and it will make it less red, less burning.

When I started thinking, Oh, I’m stimulating the vagus nerve, then I started playing with different stimulatory oils. Clove tested the best. But there is a little bit of chemistry that goes into oil combining. Clove has medium-sized molecules. From the time when you apply it to when it actually gets through the skin, 10-15 minutes. Lime or other citrus oils have super small molecules, so they get in much quicker. When you combine clove and lime, it’s kind of like combining a really good athlete and a really smart person, and you get an athletic, smart person. You’re getting this stimulatory, fast-acting blend that you can then apply behind the earlobe on the mastoid bone, and it works like an acupuncture needle. It helps you stimulate the vagus nerve to activate the parasympathetic nervous system.

Dr. Eric:

Thanks for that explanation. How frequently would someone apply it? If they are feeling anxious, that would be an ideal time to apply it. Let’s say they apply it in the morning, and then it returns. Would they do it again later that day? Or is it once a day?

Jodi:

When people start with me, I am trying to make it as easy as possible. If you can link a new habit to an old one, it’s easier to remember. How many of us have piles of supplements that we just never remember to take? For people who are starting out, leave it by your toothbrush. Put it on when you brush your teeth. Then they will remember. They will notice, when I use this, I feel better. Honestly, when you can perceive the benefit, you do it. For anyone who is on thyroid medication, when I forget to take it, I am sleepy during the day. All of you who are on thyroid medication remember to take it because you see the benefit.

To answer your question, I know people who carry it in their purse. They keep one in the car. I had one woman who said it’s what gets her through election night. She was putting it on literally every four minutes. Better that than maybe drinking an entire bottle of wine. It’s adding salt to your food. Use as needed. But if you’re starting out, give yourself a break. Make it as easy as possible so you can set yourself up for success.

Dr. Eric:

Also, as far as the points of application, you mentioned the acupressure points. For example, with the vagus nerve, they would rub it behind the ear. When other people say rubbing essential oils on the feet, are they using acupressure points then?

Jodi:

Yeah. The feet are wonderful points of application for a number of reasons. Some people either are sensitive to smell, or they’re married to someone who is. When you put things on your feet, you can cover them with socks. It’s not as smelly for the other people in your life. There are tons of acupressure points on the feet. Also, the skin on the feet is a little bit thicker, so those hot oils that I mentioned, some of them are good for anti-microbial, anti-bacterial things, like thyme and oregano. Putting it on the bottom of the feet, it doesn’t feel warm. It’s a great application point for younger children who might be squirmy. You can put things on their feet while they’re sleeping. I have a whole list on my website of where they are. It’s wonderful for a variety of reasons.

Dr. Eric:

Can you also give a few essential oils for liver health? You were talking about the importance of liver and detox.

Jodi:

We have two liver blends. Emotions can play a role in your health because- What oils are particularly good at are moving stagnation. When things sit stagnant for too long, that’s when problems occur. Think of the pond where all the water is stagnant, and things start to grow. In terms of actual physical liver health, like grapefruit is good, helichrysum is good. We have a liver blend that combines things in interesting ways.

For emotional health, blue tansy is really good. The liver is where we stuff our anger. For so many of us, we’re good girls, we’re pleasers, we want to make everyone happy. Sometimes that means we do all of this, and it’s either unappreciated, or someone changes the plan. What do we do with our anger? We don’t get mad at people; we stuff it, and we don’t necessarily know how to release it. Blue tansy is a great way to let things go so that we don’t carry them anymore.

When you think of the trail that the garbage follows from the cell to the toilet, it goes from the cell to the lymph to the blood to the liver to the gallbladder to the gut to the toilet. At any point along that process, it can get stuck and stagnant. Oils really help move fluids. Like in the plants. The water is down in the ground in the root. The leaves can be hundreds of feet in the air. They help keep things moving.

Lymph congestion is common around the thyroid, around the neck. There is a lot going on in the neck. A lot can be bottlenecked and stagnant. Castor oil is fabulous. The mint oils. Spearmint tests better than peppermint. We have a lymph blend. Anything you can do to help things move along the neck. Even just using your fingers to press downward. Lymph drains 75% more on the left side. The clavicle is a bottleneck. Just gently massaging that area. All of these things help to make sure that the garbage leaves your body and doesn’t hang out by the thyroid and cause problems.

Dr. Eric:

Are there any other essential oils that are your favorites that you haven’t mentioned?

Jodi:

Rose is a really good one, especially when you are feeling like you need a little bit more hope or joy. Or if you are experiencing any kind of grief or loss. I had a major loss, and I would wake up in the middle of the night and almost feel like I was having a heart attack because the emotional pain in my heart was so intense. Applying rose oil over the heart really helped. It’s like when you have a charley horse, and you get up and step down, and all of a sudden, the spasming stops. Rose can really help with intense pain and grief and loss.

Dr. Eric:

When talking about the application, you’re usually using one or two drops per essential oil.

Jodi:

Yes. Less is more. You don’t need a ton. When you’re cooking and putting Tabasco sauce in, you’re not going to dump the whole bottle. More is not better. A little bit goes a long way.

Dr. Eric:

How about for candida overgrowth? Oregano? Which oils would you recommend?

Jodi:

Candida serves a purpose. It helps to absorb heavy metals. I encourage people to work with a practitioner because if you’re just getting rid of the candida, and you’re mobilizing the metals, you will have another problem. You want to make sure you’re taking some kind of binder.

Yeah, oregano can be good. Thyme can be good. Lemongrass is good. We have an article that details the good candida. Most people don’t realize that it’s not just a problem. It’s usually growing to protect you from other things. Be careful just eradicating it without making sure you’re mopping up the metals in the process.

Dr. Eric:

All right. Let’s talk about choosing quality essential oils. There are a lot of different companies out there. Like anything else, herbs and supplements, not all essential oils are created equally, correct?

Jodi:

That’s kind of what the marketing speak is. I think that there is a lot of fear-based marketing that I don’t like to play into. Anyone who has ever grown an herb garden, it’s hard to kill mint and lavender. What I would say is when you can, buy organic because they are the concentrated essences of plants. If you are concentrating pesticides, or even things that are grown in metallic soil, that’s not ideal. But I don’t want to terrify people from stepping into it.

If you are new to this and you have never played with oils, honestly go to your health food stores and smell, and see which ones you like. Pick one. Orange is a very affordable oil that smells really good to a lot of people. It’s good for focus and mood. Just try it.

You can add it to your bath. I love Epsom salt baths, which are also good for the liver. I use Mark Hyman’s recipe of two cups of Epsom salt, one cup of baking soda. Since the pandemic started, I have been putting in a lot of borax since that seems to help the immune system. I use the bathtub like a mixing bowl. I use one or two drops of lavender and stir it into the salt before I add the hot water. Make it as warm as you can tolerate. Stay in as long as you can tolerate. It helps to use your skin as a detox pathway so that it lessens the burden on the liver.

Dr. Eric:

How about oral health? Would you recommend oil pulling? I do oil pulling; I don’t add essential oils admittedly. I just swish it with coconut oil, but I have heard where some would say to add some essential oils.

Jodi:

Yeah, I do that. Katie Spears of Wellness Mama has a really good oil pulling recipe. I think she uses a cup of coconut oil, 30 drops of peppermint oil, and she puts them in those candy trays in the fridge and lets them cool so they become almost candy-like. It makes it really easy. I have tried different oils. Sesame oil is recommended. Some of them taste not great. You don’t necessarily want to keep it in your mouth for that long. Adding a little bit of peppermint. You can also use cinnamon or clove. It makes it more pleasant. When it’s more pleasant, you’re open to swishing it around for 15 minutes, and it’s not as disturbing. I definitely like that.

Dr. Eric:

For people listening to this who are brand new, you gave some really helpful tips. If they’re still thinking, I don’t know where to start, I know you said just go to the local health food store and get a couple essential oils. If someone has Hashimoto’s and they are experiencing fatigue and brain fog, the typical symptoms, or again Graves’, and they’re experiencing anxiety, would you just get the essential oils based on their symptoms? Or are there some general essential oils you’d say to start with?

Jodi:

I wrote a book on this called Essential Oils to Boost the Brain and Heal the Body. I’m friends with a lot of practitioners who treat super chronically ill patients. They were saying these people show up at their door with file folders full of their test results. They have Lyme, this, and that. They think they are unbelievably complicated and difficult. What we realized is those are all data points. They can change.

Most people have five imbalances that throw them into ill health. One is what we already talked about, that their nervous system is in the wrong gear. They are operating in the high-stress gear of sympathetic when we should move them into parasympathetic so you can turn on the body’s ability to heal.

They are not sleeping. They are not falling asleep. They are not staying asleep. That throws off everything else.

They are not draining. They are mobilizing toxins. Maybe they are drinking their green juice, so all the toxins are mobilizing. Think of yelling “Fire!” in the movie theater without opening the emergency doors. All you’re doing is getting everyone running around in circles and bumping into each other. You need to make sure the garbage leaves the body. Those are the main three things.

That’s what I really get into in the book: How do you use oils? There are certain challenges as a practitioner. You’re low on B vitamins. That’s an easy one. You supplement with B vitamins. You’re unable to activate your parasympathetic nervous system. This one person says to gag yourself with a tongue depressor. Splash your face with freezing water. Terrify yourself. Guess what? Compliance is zero. That’s hard to do. No one wants to do that. No one wants to evoke something that is unpleasant.

But if I say to someone, “Take the parasympathetic essential oil. Flip the bottle. Put it here,” that takes less than two seconds, it smells good, it makes you feel better, and you will remember that. It’s those kinds of things that I am trying to do.

I recognize there are oil companies that have deep loyalties. In the book, I share the recipes. If you have a house full of oils and don’t want to buy more, I get it. Here is the recipe. Make your own. If you’re worried, “Oh gosh, I don’t want to do it wrong. I’m not sure exactly,” I have ready-made solutions. I am trying to meet people where they’re at and empower them with strategies to help their body return to health.

Dr. Eric:

That makes sense. The name of the book is Essential Oils to Boost the Brain and Heal the Body.

Jodi:

Exactly.

Dr. Eric:

They can also learn more about you by visiting your website, VibrantBlueOils.com.

Jodi:

Yes.

Dr. Eric:

Thank you so much for sharing this information, Jodi. I appreciate it. I’m sure that they found it to be extremely valuable. I learned some things, too. Appreciate you taking the time to spread your wealth of knowledge with essential oils. Definitely check out Jodi’s book. Visit her website. Thanks again.

Jodi:

Thank you so much for having me.

Recently I interviewed Dr. Westin Childs, as he discussed some of the different supplements that can benefit those with hyperthyroidism/Graves’ disease and hypothyroidism/Hashimotos’, and below is the written transcript. If you would prefer to listen the interview you can access it by Clicking Here:

With me, I have a very special guest, Dr. Westin Childs. Dr. Childs is a former osteopathic physician that focuses on helping people with thyroid problems, weight gain, and hormone imbalances. He takes a functional medicine approach to these systems and believes that everyone, regardless of their hormone status, can get back to feeling 100% using a combination of medical and natural therapies. Welcome, Dr. Childs.

Dr. Westin Childs:

Thanks, Eric. I’m glad to be here. For those who maybe don’t know, we had Eric on my podcast previously, so this is our second time chatting. The first time was awesome, so I’m really happy to be here.

Dr. Eric:

Happy to have you, Westin. Why don’t you start out by discussing how you started helping people with thyroid conditions?

Dr. Westin:

Sure. Full disclosure: I’m not practicing now. I originally went to an osteopathic medical school. When I came out, I started in radiology and moved to functional medicine. I knew I was going to do something related to hormones and weight loss. Weight loss was the thing I was most interested in at the time. I also wanted to focus on menopausal type stuff and hormone replacement therapy in that setting.

I was working with a couple of chiropractors. They just kept sending me patients that they couldn’t get all the way better. They would do what they could. They would use supplements, diet, lifestyle, and so on. Some of these patients needed thyroid medication, so they would send these patients to me. I learned a lot in practicing and helping these people get better. I started to use things. I found out certain things didn’t work. I would start out with levothyroxine, which is what I was taught. I’d add natural desiccated thyroid extract. That would help some people but not others. Then I wanted to combine T3. I added more and more therapies. We were able to really help these people who otherwise weren’t able to get help from either their conventional doctors, their endocrinologists or family practice doctors. As a result, it grew from there.

Once you help a couple people, you attract people like crazy. There were so many thyroid patients who would come. In a way, I joke and say that I was attracted to that field out of necessity. There was such a void that needed to be filled in that area with thyroid management. Nobody was doing it. That is really what happened. I got interested in that. Because the thyroid is so integral to the systems and body including your metabolism and other hormone systems, it allowed me to do the things I wanted to do anyway. I was able to help a lot of patients who had low thyroid function and Hashimoto’s because weight gain is one of the main symptoms of that. I learned a lot about weight loss doing that. These people still had issues with estrogen and progesterone, so they needed bioidentical hormone replacement and therapy. That is how I got into it.

From there, I started doing my blog. I did my podcast and videos. Here we are.

Dr. Eric:

How long ago was that?

Dr. Westin:

I look pretty old, but it was just in 2015. I have only been doing this about five, six years.

Dr. Eric:

Wonderful. We are going to chat about supplements. It’s probably a good idea to start off by letting everybody know that supplements are important. They can play a big role in helping someone regain their health and feel better. But of course, we always want to start with diet and lifestyle, and I’m sure you would agree with that.

Dr. Westin:

For sure. When we talk about supplements, which is really what we’re going to talk about today, I want to zoom out a little and say: When I was looking at thyroid patients, you have a lot of different therapy options available to you. Really, supplements are just one bucket. Now having said that, I think supplements provide a lot of benefit because they are something you have control over. What I mean by that is they are not gated by a prescription path. You don’t need to go to your doctor and say, if you want to switch from a synthroid or levothyroxine to something else, you can’t do that on your own. Your doctor needs to prescribe that for you. But when it comes to supplements, you have the option to mix and match things. You can play around with them. You do have a lot of autonomy using over-the-counter supplements, which is why I am attracted to that field.

As Eric was saying, these are supplements. They are not meant to be used in isolation. They are supplements to whatever else you are doing. As we are talking about supplements, we will be going deep into those supplements themselves. But remember they are part of a complete therapy system. You are going to have diet, supplements, medications, hormones, lifestyle, stress reduction, improved sleep. This is just one element of many different buckets that you need to look at in terms of treatment.

I’ll also add one other thing here: When possible, you want to get as many nutrients (which is what supplements are providing) as you can from the foods you are consuming. A lot of times, that may not be possible, especially if we are talking about the soil depletion of certain nutrients. The foods that we’re consuming don’t have as much nutrients as they once did. In that case, it makes sense to supplement.

In other cases, it makes sense to supplement because some foods that are really rich in certain nutrients and vitamins may not be palatable to you. You may not like to eat those. You may not like to consume seaweed if you are looking for iodine. You may not like to consume oysters every day because you want to get your zinc elsewhere. You have to play around with all these things together. But I do think supplements have a really important role in the treatment of a lot of thyroid patients and can provide benefit. But they should not be looked at in isolation. They should be looked at as one part of a whole treatment plan.

Dr. Eric:

Let’s dive into the supplements what are some of the more common supplements that you recommend?

Dr. Westin:

Are we talking about Hashimoto’s patients? Graves’ Disease? What were you thinking? Or just general?

Dr. Eric:

I was thinking we could do it either way. We could focus on hypothyroid patients and then hyperthyroid. Some supplements are better suited for those with Hashimoto’s, and some are better suited for Graves’, and some could benefit both. I’m open to however you want to start.

Dr. Westin:

One of the main benefits of supplementation is you have the ability to manipulate and fine tune what nutrients you’re using to try to obtain some specific purpose. There are a lot of ways to look at supplements and how to use them, but that is how I think about it.

When I am looking at thyroid patients, I am really thinking about what sort of thyroid problem do you have? It’s not always obvious. You might think to yourself, I have Graves’ Disease, therefore I have hyperthyroidism; therefore, my thyroid is actively hyperthyroid. This isn’t always the case. For instance, you could be taking an excessive dose of methimazole, which is blocking your thyroid beyond that which would be normal. You could go from hyperthyroid to hypothyroid in which case there is maybe some room for improvement there.

Likewise, imagine you are somebody who has hyperthyroidism. Let’s imagine you had your thyroid ablated or surgically removed via thyroidectomy. Even though you were previously diagnosed as hyperthyroid, once your thyroid is removed, you are more in the hypothyroid camp. You have to think about what is your current thyroid status? Then you can determine what kind of supplements you want to use at that point. That is really how I am thinking about it.

We will talk about supplements that boost thyroid function, supplements that improve the immune system. We can talk about supplements that will be beneficial for Hashimoto’s and Graves’. There are some supplements that can make those conditions worse. On the flip side, there is also a lot of supplements important for general health. We can talk about those more broadly and then dive into these other areas more specifically as we need to.

For general health, zinc would be a really good one. I would look at magnesium as that tends to be depleted in a lot of people, especially related to stress. All the B vitamins, B12 especially. These tend to be depleted in stressful situations, and they tend to be impacted by those with thyroid function due to how the thyroid impacts the metabolism and how these are excreted or retained inside the kidney or intestinal tract. I would include Vitamin D although I think that has relevance when it comes to autoimmune diseases as well. I could put that in both Graves’ and Hashimoto’s. Those are the basics.

These are more related to vitamins and nutrients and not necessarily botanicals. I want to separate those two. Botanicals are when you are extracting a specific element of a plant. Ashwagandha is an adaptogen. We talked about berberine, which is a plant alkaloid. You can take these specific elements of plants, crush them up, put them in a capsule form, and take them to obtain some sort of benefit as well. You really have vitamins, nutrients, minerals, botanicals, and herbs. Which one you use, and when you need them, depends on your situation and thyroid status. In fact, I would also include probiotics and omega-3 fatty acids. These are the more general supplements you’d want to consider taking on a daily basis if you have any thyroid problem.

If you have a specific thyroid problem, we can go down that route as well depending on which one you’re thinking.

Dr. Eric:

Keeping in mind of course that Graves’ and Hashimoto’s are autoimmune conditions. With both of those conditions, they can take any of those supplements you just mentioned.

Dr. Westin:

That’s how I view it, yes. I would say that these are supplements for generalized health. They are to improve your health. When you look at patients, these are patients that if you took any random sampling of someone from the United States, they are someone who would benefit from taking those supplements, in my opinion, which is why they are included in a lot of multivitamins. When you look at statistics, something like 68% of adults in the United States are taking supplements in some form. They must believe that supplements provide some form of benefit; otherwise, 68% of people would not be buying them and using them on a frequent basis.

Where you get into some contradictions are how conventional doctors view supplements versus how integrative and functional medicine practitioners view supplements. You can talk about those from two different angles, so that gets more complicated.

The gist is most conventionally trained doctors who are treating thyroid conditions tend to be against supplements. We can talk about which ones and why. Especially iodine. That is a controversial topic. Whereas the integrative and holistic and more functional medicine practitioners tend to be pro-supplements. This is probably because they have seen how beneficial and effective they can be, and probably because they have used them personally.

I would say in my own situation, dealing with my own personal health problems, I found supplements to be incredibly effective, more so than prescription medications. It’s hard to argue with somebody that supplements don’t have enough scientific data to support them when it is clear that a lot of people experience benefits when using them. I want to put that in the background there in terms of context.

Dr. Eric:

I agree. As you know, I was diagnosed with Graves’ Disease. Of course, diet and lifestyle played a huge role, but I took supplements, and I think they also played an important role in my recovery. Same when I work with patients.

Without question, if I had to choose one thing, it would be diet and lifestyle over supplements, but ideally, I would recommend both. I would recommend they do everything they can from a diet and lifestyle perspective, like eating well, managing your stress, getting sufficient sleep. But supplements also play an important role. We are on the same page with that.

Why don’t we start with low thyroid function? What are some of the supplements if someone has an overt low thyroid hormone levels or sub-clinical hypothyroidism?

Dr. Westin:

When it comes to someone who has low thyroid function, I want to distinguish that we are talking about someone who has an insufficient amount of thyroid hormone in their body, meaning they are experiencing low thyroid function. The reason I am harping on that is because you can have people with hyperthyroidism experience these symptoms. It’s not specific to people who have been diagnosed with Hashimoto’s or hypothyroidism. We are talking specifically what is happening at the cellular level. Are your cells being impacted by thyroid hormone sufficiently to improve or cause the effects that you want thyroid hormone to do? If that is not the case, there are supplements you can take potentially to augment how well that thyroid function is working.

I think of that in three broad categories. We can help with thyroid hormone production. We can help the thyroid gland produce more thyroid hormone by providing the necessary building blocks the thyroid needs to produce those hormones. We are providing it what it needs so it allows it to occur.

Then we can talk about thyroid conversion. You can take supplements to support the conversion of T4 to T3, which is essentially saying, even if you have your thyroid hormone produced from the thyroid gland, it’s not going to work unless it is converted from the inactive form, T4, to the more biologically active form, T3. T4 does have some biological activity.

Lastly, you can talk about supplements that help thyroid cellular hormone sensitivity. We are saying that not only does the thyroid hormone have to be produced from the thyroid gland, it must also be converted from T4 to T3, and your cells must then be sensitized to it so it can actually function. Each of these categories, we have different supplements that work. If you want to talk about any of them in more detail, let me know.

When it comes to thyroid hormone production from the thyroid gland, we are really looking at 1) tyrosine, 2) iron, which is important for thyroid peroxidase; and 3) iodine. These three nutrients, not really vitamins per se, are absolutely required for thyroid hormone production inside of the thyroid gland. When you take these things, you are saying, “Look, I am providing the body with necessary building blocks that it can take to produce more thyroid hormone.”

Not so much in the case of tyrosine, as tyrosine is an amino acid. Most people are not tyrosine deficient. However, I will say that people who are supplementing with tyrosine do tend to see improvement in thyroid hormone production. I believe there is probably some competition between the use of tyrosine between the adrenal gland and the thyroid gland, which both use it for the production of building blocks of hormones. So I do see the benefit of using tyrosine even though people are not grossly deficient in it. That is not something you see very often.

You do frequently see iodine deficiency. You also see sub-optimal iron levels. Iron is required for the activation of a certain enzyme, which is involved in the production of thyroid hormone. You need iron for that enzyme to function. I find that thyroid, especially low thyroid, impacts the absorption of iron in the intestinal tract. There are a ton of patients who are iron-deficient or at least have sub-optimal iron levels such that these enzymes are not functioning 100%. It’s not like they are turned off. Instead, think of it as them running about 80-85% of normal instead of 100%. You have a slight drag on the efficiency of that system because there is a sub-optimal level. That is why I have to say I am a big proponent of checking on your standard lab tests for iron. That is one of my recommended lab panels for thyroid patients. You have to. If you don’t, it doesn’t matter what you do because you won’t see the success there.

Dr. Eric:

I agree.

Dr. Westin:

Ferritin, very important. If you have not had your ferritin checked and your iron, make sure you do, if you’re suffering from low thyroid function.

Iodine is the one I left for last because it’s another topic by itself. Before we do that, iodine is of course required for thyroid hormone production. I say it forms the arms and legs of the thyroid hormone molecule. Essentially, when we describe thyroid hormones, we describe them as T4 or T3. That annotation of 4 or 3 describes how many iodine molecules is on that compound. That hormone is either biologically active or inactive, or it turns into reverse T3 based on the configurations of that iodine. If you don’t have enough iodine, which a lot of people don’t, then you will have a problem producing enough thyroid hormone.

From a thyroid hormone production perspective, those are the three nutrients I would recommend that are most important. We can talk about conversion and cellular sensitivity here in just a minute as well. I don’t know if you wanted to dive into iodine in a little more detail.

Dr. Eric:

Sure,we could talk more about iodine. With iron, I agree with you once again. Ferritin, I like to see iron saturation, TIBC. With iodine though, do you recommend testing, like a urinary test or a blood test?

Dr. Westin:

Great question. Generally, no. I’ll explain why. There are a number of ways to test iodine. We won’t get into those testing methods. One of the more accurate ones is the 24-hour urine testing or the iodine loading tests. That is probably the most accurate of the available testing methods.

However, the controversy surrounding iodine is whether or not iodine is potentially harmful to those people who have thyroid problems. Part of that loading test requires taking high doses of iodine. If you are in the camp that says iodine is potentially dangerous, and yet you are giving someone a high dose to get tested, you put yourself in a little bit of a pickle. A one-time dose is probably not going to cause a problem for you there. But you have to think about these things as well. Not only that, but that particular test is also potentially difficult to do. It requires a lot of patient compliance. It is a bit of a nuisance. It’s annoying. It’s a little expensive. What do I do with the results afterward? I don’t recommend it for those reasons.

However, I also recommend starting with physiological doses of iodine as supplementations. If you are going to say, “I am a proponent of higher doses of iodine,” (I don’t know how deep you want to get into the iodine rabbit hole here) but the way I think about is because iodine is physiologically necessary for humans, they cannot produce it, meaning you must be getting it from your diet or supplement, that is how the physiology works. You need it. Therefore, if I am supplementing with a dose that is within the RDA, then I feel comfortable recommending that dose to somebody, whether or not I know what their actual testing is.

But I would say if you are somebody who is recommending higher doses of iodine in the range of 6-12.5 mg or higher, then I think it’s probably incumbent upon you to check and make sure that that person can actually handle that. Try a lower dose to make sure you are not potentially making that problem worse.

That is why I am not a super huge fan of iodine testing. I think it does make sense in certain situations, but I do feel comfortable recommending the physiologic dose range of about 100-250 mcg per day in supplement form or via foods. I don’t think you will see an issue with that. I will support that by saying there are tons of foods that have iodine in them that most people have no idea have iodine in them. Eggs, deli meats, strawberries, oat milk, tuna, etc. You are consuming a lot of these things on a daily basis. If you haven’t had a negative experience, chances are you are probably doing okay with iodine, at least in that dose range.

Furthermore, I have last I looked 80,000 bottles of supplements sold with iodine in them. I have a huge database of patients who have used iodine now. Very few people who actually have problems with iodine, especially at that dose. I can’t think of more than a couple off the top of my head. I think that when we are talking about these lower doses, especially the food situation, I think it’s safe. I brushed over a lot of areas because I think we could talk about iodine all day if we really wanted to. That’s why I don’t recommend routine iodine testing.

Dr. Eric:

Thanks for sharing. I agree. I know there are some practitioners who tell people both with Hashimoto’s and Graves’ strictly to avoid iodine. I agree that most people just taking normal doses of iodine and not getting into the mg doses are usually not going to have a problem.

To be fair, there are some people who take higher doses of iodine and rave about it. I’ll admit I was one of those people years ago. I took higher doses of iodine, following Dr. David Brownstein. I had a positive experience. I was recommending iodine to most of my patients, the higher doses, doing the iodine loading test, which I can’t say I do routinely now. If I will do testing, I’ll do more iodine spot tests for the reason you mentioned because the iodine loading test involves a 15mg tablet of the potassium iodide. You just never know how someone is going to handle it. I agree that lower doses of iodine in people who feel comfortable talking iodine as part of a multivitamin, which would be anywhere from 75-200mcg. There is always going to be exceptions with anything that someone takes. I agree. Iodine is important.

There is a different perspective when it comes to hyperthyroidism and Graves’. With Hashimoto’s arguably the low thyroid hormone is caused by the immune system damaging the thyroid gland. Maybe iodine isn’t as important in that situation. If someone does have a deficiency, then of course you want to address it. Even with Graves’, I am not afraid of giving a multivitamin with iodine in there.

Dr. Westin:

Nor am I.

Dr. Eric:

If someone does happen to have a reaction, it’s usually not severe with such a low dose. They can just stop taking it. With higher doses, it’s a different story.

Dr. Westin:

Previously, one of the treatments for Graves’ and hyperthyroidism was high doses of iodine to block the uptake of the production of thyroid hormone. This used to be a therapy back in the day. Clearly, there was something about iodine that is therapeutic in the setting of hyperthyroidism and hypothyroidism as we discussed. It’s really hard to come up with any definitive statement.

From the perspective of the patients, it gets a little confusing because you have people who are adamantly against it, adamantly for it, and people who are adamantly for really high doses of it. You have this wide variety of opinions. Patients are swimming through it and not knowing what the actual answer is. I think you hit the nail on the head when you said it is really an individualized thing. That’s how I look at it. If you’re really not sure what to do, and you’re afraid to cause a problem, get that help that a lot of people provide, like you do, Eric, if you need it. They can help sort through a lot of these things.

But my opinion is that most people taking that physiologic dose range will be fine. That’s my experience. I don’t think that’s a problem. If you want to start using it for therapeutic purposes, meaning you want to start potentially blocking thyroid hormone production from the thyroid gland because you are trying to stay off of the more prescriptive medications such as methimazole or PTU, you probably want a practitioner to help guide you through the process.

Likewise, if you want to use higher doses for hypothyroidism, because you are trying for detoxification of elements, I would probably get some help with that.

But the general physiologic doses, my personal opinion is that it’s probably okay to use. You really should not see significant harm, especially if it’s combined or taken with selenium, and you don’t have any issues there.

Dr. Eric:

I do want you to discuss conversion. One other thing I’ll mention is if someone doesn’t want to take methimazole, or if they are unable to take it, if they have taken it and experienced some side effect which is common with antithyroid medication, then I will typically recommend not the high-dose iodine but bugleweed, an herb with antithyroid properties. That’s what I took. I have another episode that focuses on bugleweed and motherwort. There are other options besides taking high-dose iodine, even if someone is unable to take antithyroid medication.

Dr. Westin:

For sure. I agree. My greater point is definitely don’t do that on your own. You want to be guided by someone like you if you are going to take that approach. If you are trying to take yourself off methimazole in favor of more alternative medications, I would definitely not recommend you do that on your own. Whichever one you and your practitioner decide on. I think we’re on the same page there.

Dr. Eric:

Yep. Let’s dive into conversion problems.

Dr. Westin:

Conversion is really important for low thyroid function. Understanding the conversion process is still important for people with hyperthyroidism. This conversion process is a process by which your body essentially takes a slightly biologically active form of thyroid hormone, usually in the form of T4, and converts it either to a very biologically active form, T3, or a blockading hormone, RT3. This conversion process is important for all types of thyroid hormone. From a physiologic perspective, a thyroid patient should understand the process.

Now when it comes to low thyroid function, a lot of thyroid patients have a problem with that converting, taking T4 to T3. When it comes to hyperthyroidism, most people are taking that T4 to RT3. It’s a completely different pathway; it goes down the fork. We are trying to accelerate down this path, if you have low thyroid function. There are a number of nutrients you can do that with, including zinc, selenium, and guggul extract, as well as pretty much anything that reduces inflammation. We know that inflammation as a process, infections, anything that stimulates the immune system and goes down that pro-inflammatory pathway will reduce the conversion of T4 to T3.

You can take these supplements, and it just so happens that a lot of hypothyroid patients need more zinc and selenium generally. That has just been my experience for most people; that is not universally true. It is not always the case, especially with selenium. But most people can benefit from supplementing with zinc and selenium.

When we get into guggulsterone, that is different. That is more of a botanical. That is an extract or ingredient we talked about previously. It also has other benefits, like anti-inflammatory. Pretty much anything that has an anti-inflammatory effect, like Omega-3 fatty acids or antioxidants or Vitamin C. Anything in that area. I will use rosemary extract. You can take plant or herbal extracts that are known to have anti-inflammatory effects and combine them together to enhance that pathway. That’s what I’m thinking about.

We can talk about dosing or keep it broad. Those are the four broad categories of supplements you can take to improve thyroid conversion.

Dr. Eric:

Before we get into dosing, how about talking about the conversion? A lot of it takes place in the liver and gut. Do you recommend things to support liver and gut?

Dr. Westin:

That’s another way to look at it. I am trying to keep it more simple. If you go to a practitioner, they will look at the system in your body and see the whole picture. We are speaking more generally here. Let’s say you went to see Eric, and he was trying to figure out why you aren’t converting. As Eric said, a lot of that conversion occurs predominantly in the liver, some in the intestinal tract, and some occurs at the cellular level. The nutrients required at the cellular level are different than those required in the liver or gut. When you go in and are being evaluated, you can try to pinpoint what issue is in your body. It will be different for every person. Some people might have more liver problems because they have insulin resistance. Some people may have issues with detoxification or their bile ducts because they had their gallbladder removed. Other people may be suffering from gut infections or inflammatory conditions or leaky gut or intestinal overgrowth or fungal overgrowth. Those are highly individualized. You have to go into that area and determine what needs to be treated.

That being said, there are certain basic things that you can do. If we want to be basic about it, with liver health, that includes things like consuming foods that are high in sulfur like cruciferous vegetables or using milk thistle. If you want to take a generalized approach there, you can use glutathione.

When it comes to gut health, we can talk about probiotics, prebiotics, herbal antifungals, antibacterial agents. it depends on which area you’re looking at. But you’re right to point out that the majority of the conversion does occur in the liver and the gut. Some occurs peripherally inside cellular tissues as well.

Dr. Eric:

Thanks for that. With dosing, especially selenium and zinc, because you don’t want to take too much of either one, what would be a general dosage that would be recommended?

Dr. Westin:

Good point. You can get highly individualized here as well. When it comes to zinc, I’m a fan of the lowest possible dose of zinc you can take, somewhere between 8-10 mg. Assuming you can take it without food and assuming you can take it by itself and are getting the maximum absorption. You will find the majority of zinc comes in higher dosages. You have a lot of people who experience nausea and indigestion when using zinc, which is why I recommend lower dosages. That maximizes absorption and minimizes side effects. It’s repleting the base level you need.

When it comes to selenium, that’s different. Most people need zinc more than selenium because you don’t want to go overboard on selenium. I haven’t found too many issues taking 30-60mg of zinc if you don’t know what your level is and are blindly supplementing.

With selenium, that’s another story. You can run into problems with selenium toxicity. I tend to lean backwards a little bit there. In the past, I used to recommend higher doses, 300-400 mcg, especially with patients with autoimmune diseases. I have since reined that back in, so I will recommend somewhere in the range of 100-200mcg range of selenium. That should be taken in context with what you are consuming.

People are consuming a lot of Brazil nuts because they are known to be a high source of selenium. The problem is there are a lot of issues related to the content of selenium inside Brazil nuts, which depends on where it was harvested, the size of the nut, and so on. Also, because of the keto diet, these nuts have been brought to prominence, so you have a lot more people consuming more Brazil nuts. If you accidentally take 5-6 Brazil nuts in one day, you can get up to the 500-600mcg dose of selenium, combined with whatever supplements you are taking. You could pretty easily get up to 900-1,000mcg of selenium per day, which is clearly more than you want to be taking.

So I recommend you proceed cautiously with selenium. If you stay in that low dose range and eliminate sources of selenium like Brazil nuts, you should be okay. I recommend using selenium in supplement form because you titrate that dose. There is a lot of variability between your Brazil nuts (one might have 40 mcg and one might have 90, it’s hard to know). If you are using a supplement form, you can fine tune and titrate it. I took 100 mcg last month, and I am monitoring my progress. I am looking at my symptoms and lab tests. How do I feel? It’s easier to monitor in that way. Did your question get answered?

Dr. Eric:

You just mentioned the doses for zinc and selenium. If you want to mention the other two-

Dr. Westin:

Those are variable. Guggulsterone and anti-inflammatory dosages can vary. I won’t go into those in detail. More important for thyroid patients are zinc and selenium, and not overdoing on those two areas.

Dr. Eric:

One thing to add with the selenium is if you are also taking a multivitamin, that probably has selenium as well. Besides the Brazil nut consumption, if you are taking a multivitamin, some will have up to 200mcg of selenium, too. If you are taking a separate 200mcg of selenium and eating Brazil nuts on top of that, you might be in trouble.

Dr. Westin:

That’s how I think about it. Like you said, just take stock of what you’re taking. Look on the back. Make sure you’re not overdoing selenium. I take this into context when formulating supplements and adding them together. But I will say if you go back 5-6 years, a lot of practitioners were recommending a 400mcg dose range. That was pretty popular back in the day. There was at least one study that I know of that said, “You can take up to 400-500mcg of selenium and not go into toxicity issues.” But that assumes selenium from all sources. Make sure you look on the back of every one of your bottles. Make sure there is no hidden selenium in there. Also take stock of what you’re eating that might contain high doses of selenium, which is mostly Brazil nuts, when talking about meaningful sources.

Dr. Eric:

If someone is taking magnesium, which dose would you recommend for that?

Dr. Westin:

I’m a big fan of magnesium. It can be impacted for thyroid production predominantly in the kidneys. I personally recommend in the 150-300mg dose range. Which type of magnesium you use really depends on the problem and what you’re trying to treat. You can use much higher doses of magnesium if you wanted to, especially if you are using in the form of magnesium citrate, and you are using it for gut health or constipation. You can use it predominantly for depression if you have someone suffering from brain fog or depression. That’s another form. If you are just trying to get it in the body, that’s another form. It depends on how you are trying to get it in the body and for what purpose.

I will say more generally I have included that more broadly for people who take it. You have Graves’. I don’t have a thyroid problem. But I will still recommend it for someone like me and for someone like you. It gets depleted a lot in stress. Since we’re all under a lot of stress, we all tend to benefit from using magnesium. It helps lubricate the bowels. It’s an overall good supplement to take.

If you don’t know where to start, somewhere in that 150-300mg dose range. You can always exercise dosing based on bowel tolerance. If you take it and notice you are getting indigestion or loose stool, you can back up on your dose. You can manipulate it that way. What dosing do you tend to recommend for magnesium? Or do you?

Dr. Eric:

I do recommend magnesium. I agree the form varies. Sometimes I will recommend magnesium citrate. Sometimes I will recommend magnesium malate or magnesium glycinate. It really does depend in the situation. Typically, the average dose would be anywhere between 150-400mg. There are some cases where you could justify taking higher doses. If we are talking about average, most people don’t need to take more than 400mg.

Dr. Westin:

I would recommend if you are trying to figure out what to take, some of these things we’re talking about are incredibly safe to take. You don’t need to worry about side effects. Selenium, you can go toxic. Iodine can potentially cause problems. But I have never seen anybody take magnesium and have a significant problem. If you are wondering about taking magnesium, as far as safety goes, it’s a pretty safe supplement to take.

Dr. Eric:

I agree. If someone does take too much, you might get some loose stools. Other than that, that’s it. Selenium, iodine, and iron, you don’t want to do too much. You want to test for that.

Dr. Westin:

I should have mentioned this: Some of these nutrients absolutely require testing prior to taking. Iron is one of those. You can go toxic on iron and have iron overload syndromes. Hemochromatosis is the genetic form of that that people can suffer from. It’s quite common. Iron, iodine, and potentially selenium. Some of those, you don’t need to.

Even the magnesium testing is not super accurate to begin with. That is variable as well. Some people might be using it for a completely separate purpose. Maybe you are more interested in its effects on the bowel than its intracellular effects. You could be using it for some physiologic purpose as well. In which case the numbers don’t matter as much. I take a lot of liberties in terms of how I use these and what I test for and the purpose of using the supplement. That is just how I think about it. That may not jibe with other practitioners. I have found good success in using supplements in these ways.

Dr. Eric:

You mentioned earlier the B complex. You think most people benefit from using that?

Dr. Westin:

I will tell you a little story. When I was practicing four or five years ago, one thing I would universally do, and it was just phenomenal, is I would give pretty much every thyroid patient a B12 shot. I would give it to them in a methylcobal form, 5,000mcg, so high dose. Relatively to the RDA. You wouldn’t believe the improvement that these people would see using B12 shots over other forms of B12. I really learned from that lesson that thyroid patients do really well on supraphysiologic dosages of B12 and other B vitamins. That was something I saw clinically.

There is no data or science to prove that this is the case. If you look at the data, people will say that supplemental forms such as oral or sublingual forms are not superior to B12 shots. That doesn’t jibe with what I saw clinically. People would come back and beg for more shots. They would want more and more. I don’t know if it has to do with how it gets into the cells, if it goes directly into the muscle cells and is providing mitochondrial energy in that way. I am just spit balling as to why it works or why it may work differently than oral. But I do believe the low thyroid patient population, and I can’t imagine this is untrue for hyperthyroid patients, that they respond fantastically well to shots. They can use sublingual or oral capsules as well.

If you are low in one of the B vitamins, the same triggers would cause the other B vitamins to be lower as well. They tend to be water-soluble as a family, with the exception of one, so they tend to go together. If you are low in one, you will probably be low in the others, which is why multivitamins can be beneficial. Whatever habits you are doing, stress or poor diet or eating food that is processed or refined, these things will deplete your nutrients.

Also, the thing about thyroid function is it has specific impacts on your intestinal tract as well. It causes decreased absorption of things like B12 or iron specifically. People need more of these nutrients compared to the average population.

Lastly, another thing is you can actually have autoimmune diseases of the intestinal tract, which result in further impairment of B12 absorption. Graves’ Disease is the most common cause of hyperthyroidism, and Hashimoto’s is the most common cause of hypothyroidism. We know these autoimmune diseases tend to go together. You are more likely to have it from thyroid function from the autoimmune perspective.

In my own clinical experience, I have seen the benefit there. I highly recommend B12 shots if possible. If you can’t go for that, get the sublingual form or the oral capsule. I see slightly better clinical improvement with sublingual, but I think capsules are still great. It’s harder to get the other B complexes inside of the sublingual versions, so you are usually getting B12. That is something to consider.

Honestly, I don’t have a thyroid problem, but I use B12 shots periodically as well. Maybe it’s placebo, but I feel amazing after I get them. I haven’t had one in a while. But this conversation reminded me to get one when I go home. Have you ever tried B12 shots, Eric?

Dr. Eric:

No, I have not. I will run out and get one.

Dr. Westin:

You can go to a weight loss clinic usually. But it has to be in the methylcobalamin form. We can talk about methylated versions of B complexes. As a thyroid patient, you want a methylated version of it. Don’t get cyanocobalamin for many reasons. This form can be metabolized as cyanide and cause thyroid problems. Get the methylcobalamin version. 1,000mcg-5,000mcg once per week is the range I recommend. Go get one, Eric. I think you’ll like it.

Dr. Eric:

I will need to give that a try. How about any supplements specifically that you recommend for people with hyperthyroidism or Graves’?

Dr. Westin:

I tend to take a more broad approach in the sense that I look at immune function and general systems that I see people mostly have problems with. I have a hyperthyroid bundle that I will sometimes recommend for these patients. If you want to get more fine tuned, you will need to see someone like Eric, who will recommend this probiotic or this antifungal or this antibacterial. There are some general things.

Multivitamins for sure. I am not afraid of using iodine, so I include that in there as a low dose. I am also a big fan of supporting adrenal health because I think regardless of thyroid status, you still have taxing that occurs at the adrenal function level and can result in fatigue, even though you are feeling that wired sensation that can occur with hyperfunction. Gut health is also definitely important.

That is how I would look at hyperthyroidism. From there, we can go down into these other things we mentioned previously, like focusing on systems like liver health and gut health. Those are the general supplements for hyperthyroidism. Oh, I forgot to mention you want to focus on the immune system, which would include things like Vitamin D, zinc, and even Omega-3 fatty acids.

Dr. Eric:

I agree. I give pretty much every one of my patients, whether they have Hashimoto’s or Graves’, Omega-3 fatty acids. Vitamin D, I will test first. Most people are deficient in Vitamin D.

Dr. Westin:

Do we have time to talk about Vitamin D?

Dr. Eric:

Sure.

Dr. Westin:

I will say this: Absolutely test. I don’t know about you, but in my history of testing, I find only a handful of people come up normal. Is this your experience, too?

Dr. Eric:

Every now and then. It’s rare for people who aren’t taking it. I can’t say I haven’t seen anybody who is normal who is not taking Vitamin D.

Dr. Westin:

That has been my experience as well. A lot of people know Vitamin D is important, but they don’t understand how important it is. A lot of people tend not to want to supplement with it so much because it’s hard to experience some sort of clinical benefit when you take it. Your numbers went up, but how did you feel? Did it really help you? When you are taking an adrenal supplement like Ashwagandha or rhodiola or ginseng or maca root, a lot of people notice some benefit fairly rapidly. They can tell this thing is helping them with their libido or energy or sleep. It’s easier to take something if you notice the improvement. But that Vitamin D level is so important.

Having said that, I am with Eric on this as well, I don’t think I have seen maybe one person who is not supplementing with Vitamin D already. I live in Arizona. Where do you live?

Dr. Eric:

North Carolina.

Dr. Westin:

We are probably fairly similar. You should have a lot of sunny days there. It should be enough to get sufficient Vitamin D through the sun, latitude-wise. It is so common that it’s deficient. I will say it is pretty easy to take a Vitamin D supplement, in the D3 form, to get the right dosing. But you will want to test. I still recommend if possible that you get it through the natural route. That is far more beneficial from a Circadian rhythm point of view, the skin. Depending upon where you live, if you are far too north, or what time of year it is, or how much cloud cover you have, or if you use sunscreen, it may not be possible. If that is the case, you want to supplement. But if you do want to get it the natural way, you can.

The rules of thumb is you want to have 40% of your skin exposed. You don’t want to have any sort of suntan blocking lotion on. You want to be out where your shadow is shorter than you are. If you walk outside and your shadow casts a shadow that is 10 feet long and you are six feet tall, that is the wrong time of day for sun exposure. It needs to be between the hours of noon and 2pm typically. 40% of skin exposed, no suntan lotion, and clear skies. No cloud cover. If you can go out and spend about 20 minutes out there, you can get a significant amount of Vitamin D through the sun. That light that comes into your eyes, this is all beneficial for your Circadian rhythm. It can help you with sleep. This is the best method to get Vitamin D.

If you can’t, or if you want to rapidly get it up for some reason, you can use the Vitamin D3 formulation. You can take it that way. The micellized version is best. 1,000mcg all the way up to 5,000mcg. Some people need as high as 10,000mcg, depending. But you have to play around with it with your practitioner.

Dr. Eric:

I agree. Thank you. Not that you can’t get some benefits from the sun, but try to get as much naturally, just like from a nutrient standpoint. You want to get as much from food as possible. One other question with Vitamin D: When someone supplements, do you recommend Vitamin K2 to go along with it?

Dr. Westin:

I used to, universally. I don’t really see a lot of clinical benefit or utility in doing that, so I have since stopped recommending it. I only recommend K2 if they have a specific issue with osteoporosis or bone health or cardiovascular issues. Most of the people who would come to me did not have those issues. I thought it brought up the price of the Vitamin D3, and I saw little benefit, so I didn’t. I don’t frequently recommend it. I used to do it a lot. Every single person, you’d get D3 and K2, that combo. I don’t see a lot of benefit, so I stopped doing it personally. But if you want to do it, go for it. I don’t think there is anything wrong with it. K2 is an incredibly beneficial nutrient for general health. What is your opinion on that situation?

Dr. Eric:

I have been recommending it for a number of years because I was taught that it helps get the calcium into the bone. Whether everybody needs the K2, I don’t know, as there is not a good way to test for it. What I have also learned is that it is fairly safe. You can’t overdose with K2. It is really a play it safe mechanism if someone is taking D3 to take a K2 supplement combo just to make sure that they are getting the calcium guided into the bone. Whether they need it or not, I don’t know if any practitioner really knows. That is the approach I take.

Dr. Westin:

I try to use the fewest amount of supplements to get the biggest bang for the buck. When it comes to that, you do see diminishing returns once people start taking 8-12 supplements. I have seen people taking 20+. What is the expense of this? How feasible is it to get all of these inside your body? What benefit are you getting? Are you having interactions between the two? Are you preventing absorption of certain nutrients? We get into complex situations when you start taking a bunch. If I don’t see the clinical utility of it over time, I am more hesitant to recommend it because I think to myself, what if we took that out and added something else instead? Would you get more benefit if for instance we used rhodiola in place of K2? Or something like that. That is the philosophy I would take when looking at everything.

As you mentioned, there is nothing wrong with taking K2. A lot of people prefer to take it, especially with some of those studies, which are convincing. I haven’t seen clinical benefit personally.

It also depends on the age range of the population in which you are helping. Predominantly, the age range and gender I would see that need the most help are women, ages 30-45. These women tend to not experience any sort of issues with cardiovascular problems or bone density issues until postmenopausal. They are 15-20 years away from that issue. I don’t know who you’re seeing. That does play a role.

Dr. Eric:

It varies. I would say the average is a wide range, anywhere from 30-60. Mostly women. I see men, too. 80-90% of my patient base is women. I see women in their 30s, some in their 20s, some teens. On average, I would say 30-60, which is a pretty broad range. Can I ask you one more question?

Dr. Westin:

Absolutely.

Dr. Eric:

Do you think that a multivitamin is necessary? Would you recommend a multivitamin in most people with Graves’ and Hashimoto’s?

Dr. Westin:

Good question. Complicated answer. I would say this is how I would look at it. When I was treating people and practicing, I would rarely ever recommend multivitamins. That is because I was able to fine tune what that person needed. If you are not seeing a general practitioner, and most people are probably seeing subpar practitioners, no offense to anyone out there, but they are not going to have that knowledge to give them the direction that they need.

Generally speaking, most thyroid patients would benefit from a multivitamin, and I would recommend that. With the exception of people who are seeing someone like you who understand the nuances and could directly concoct a special set of nutrients, supplements, vitamins, botanicals, and herbs for that specific person. In the absence of that, then it’s better to use that than not at all. That is how I would look at it.

But you can do a lot on your own. I would say if you are a thyroid patient, spend some time reading and researching. If you pay attention to your body, if you try these things and experiment a bit, stay away from things we talked about previously that can potentially cause harm. You can do a lot on your own. I don’t think you should be too scared to do that. You can get a lot of improvement.

A lot of that will come down to the severity of your illness. There is always a spectrum. You might have someone on this side who is fairly easily treatable, and some things like a probiotic, Omega-3s, changing your lifestyle, eating whole foods, removing fast food may be sufficient for you to see significant improvement. If you tried these things and don’t see improvement, see someone like Eric because you will have to progress into more complicated diets, infections in the gut, liver health and insulin resistance, etc. Generally speaking, most people could benefit from a multivitamin regardless of thyroid status.

Dr. Eric:

Thanks for sharing. Any other last words as far as supplementation goes for those with thyroid conditions?

Dr. Westin:

I don’t think so. The thing I would leave everybody with is that I want to get a point across that to empower thyroid patients, do a lot of the research and learning on their own. It can be very frustrating when they are unable to get certain treatments and medications. Realize there is a wide array of supplements and so on that you can use and are available over the counter. They are not equally as good. They won’t necessarily be the key to helping you by themselves. But they can be used in conjunction with medications. That is my preferred method. Use this with diet and lifestyle. Doing it that way, a lot of people could benefit from the use of supplements.

Dr. Eric:

Thanks again for sharing everything. Thanks for your time. Where can people learn more about you?

Dr. Westin:

If this information is interesting, check out my website. Search “Dr. Westin Childs.” If you type in “Dr. Westin Childs, start here,” I have a list of eight resources you can download. Downloading them will put you on my email list. We have a set of lab tests, foods to avoid, clinical studies you can take to your doctor to promote getting the right type of treatment. Tons of downloads to check out.

Dr. Eric:

Same thing with YouTube?

Dr. Westin:

I will pop up if you type in my name. YouTube, website, podcast, etc. Whatever your fancy is, there is something there for you.

Dr. Eric:

Thanks, Westin. Appreciate everything that you have shared with the listeners. I hope to have you back again in the future. I would love to do that.

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